D&D 5E UA: "Greyhawk" Initiative

[Lord Twig]

Tons of good points.

Oh yeah. Break out the spread sheet if you are running a large combat.

Compare this to the way the game I am in is running it now...

Everyone rolls initiative at the start of the GAME. Then when combat starts it is not, "Roll initiative!" It is, "You round a corner and there are some orc guards! What do you do Rogue?" "I throw my dagger at one! Sneak Attack baby!"

Combat starts immediately. There is no delay for anything. No figuring out what everyone wants to do, no rolling dice and sorting the order. Just BAM! Go!

At the end of that combat roll initiative again so you are ready for the next combat.

 

[ad_hoc]

Additionally, there is just no way that this speeds up combat. I'm sorry, I know there are people saying, "It makes my game faster!" But I don't believe it. There are other people that say, "It makes my game feel faster. Even though it takes longer on the clock." Now that I believe.

We've used it for 3 sessions now.

1 of those sessions was the first time we've been able to have 7 combat encounters in a single 4 hour session (the session was more combat heavy than normal but still had some social and exploration play as well).

I haven't timed out exactly how long combats took before and after, but I can say that we get a lot more done in game now in the same amount of time than before.

 

[Lord Twig]

We've used it for 3 sessions now.

1 of those sessions was the first time we've been able to have 7 combat encounters in a single 4 hour session (the session was more combat heavy than normal but still had some social and exploration play as well).

I haven't timed out exactly how long combats took before and after, but I can say that we get a lot more done in game now in the same amount of time than before.

And I respect your anecdotal story. And it sounds like you guys are having fun with it! Still don't believe it. My own anecdotal experience is just way different. Sorry.

 

[Leatherhead]

My takeaways from this:

1. Bonus Actions, as a whole, are taking the heat from Off-hand Attacks (and perhaps other bonus action attacks) being a fundamentally flawed mechanic. No, spending a Bonus Action to Dodge or Dash isn't a problem, nor is the mechanical freedom to mix and match Bonus Actions with various Actions from different classes, races, and feats. It's specifically the Off-hand Attack that is really causing problems, due to being generally weak and getting in the way of other cool stuff.

Consider this; Dragonborn Barbarians can use their Bonus Action to enter a Rage and their Action to use their Breath Weapon. A one-round plan that is thematically appropriate and unique to the Dragonborn Barbarian. In order to replicate this without Bonus Actions, you would instead need to create a Special Action exclusive to Dragonborn Barbarians, and one for every other Dragonborn+(sub)class combination, so that they could use their breath weapon and their class-defining Bonus Action. That's just way too fiddly, and requires tons of redundant text and space.

2. This initiative system is backwards.
Firstly, because of it's design, you pick something and roll, then do the stuff. It should be the other way around: You do the stuff, then roll for it as a recharge on the next round. That prevents wasted actions and the like, while still enforcing consequence, and even gives the added benefit of trying to set up for faster and bigger actions in the next round.
Secondly, Rogues and Monks and Rangers shouldn't be the "slow" classes. They are the "fast" classes, which is why they get the fun bonus actions in the first place.

Even with changes though, I don't see myself using it. It's just too, for lack of a better term, "Video Gamey" , requiring an unnecessarily high amount of math variables. And feels like it belongs in the back end of some code as a hidden complexity for the uber-nerds to suss out after hours of reverse engineering for high end play.

 

[Lanefan]

I think it's been mentioned, but all of the suggestions to modify spellcasting based on spell level (or complexity) means the spell caster has to decide what spell they're casting at the beginning of the round.

Not necessarily. Your declared action is to cast a spell, and you roll accordingly. Then, when your turn comes up you declare what you're casting - you start on that segment and it's going to take one segment per spell level, so if you're casting a fireball you'll finish 3 segments from now.

First, spellcasting and especially that disruption option. I know for people who come from the ye olden days of vancian and losing the slot and taking five rounds to cast a spell this may seem very lax, but it is actually kind of brutal and it is worse for those who don't have cantrips.

Good.

There's a reason casters got completely out of hand in 3e-4e - they almost couldn't be interrupted.

For example, the Ranger wants to shoot a foe with his bow, roll 1d4. But, if he wants to hunter's mark them then shoot them it is 1d4+1d10. If they need to move first then we've got 1d4+1d6+1d10. Now, during this dash to the pillar, hunter's mark and shoot you could end up rolling much lower than the goblin who just shoots you.

Maybe you have to split these out into two rounds worth of stuff?

And with the variant now that you've been hit you can only cast a cantrip... and you don't have cantrips because you are a ranger. And what about a 4 elements monk? Are we considering their ki abilities "casting a spell"? What do they do if their use of Shatter or Fist of Unbroken Air is disrupted... and shatter is very different from Fist so how are we going to decide that one?

Not sure how Monks have fared in later editions but in the old ones they needed all the help they could get, so I'd just say these abilities cannot be interrupted unless the Monk is incapacitated somehow.

The second thing no one is talking about is how this works for the DM running multiple monsters.

They recommend rolling as a group, but that means that all your monsters are taking the same actions. How often is that really the case?

Nearly never, which is why rolling for them as a group is often a bad idea. Sometimes sub-groups can be batched - the four front-line melee types, for example, or the archery battalion on the parapets - but usually the DM would have lots of dice to roll.

Lan-"so make the DM's job easier by killing her monsters quickly"-efan

 

[Sir Brennen]

One of the worst issues with random init each round (IMHO) that no one has mentioned yet is the "double turn", where a character late in the init one round goes, then goes very early in the next round, essentially going twice in a row. In 5E, where damage output is much higher, this can make things so much more "swingy". A powerful monster getting two rounds of attacks on a PC before the character has a chance to counter-attack\defend\move could be devastating.

Besides dirty words like "segments" and "speed factors", this is one of the big things I really didn't miss from 2E.

 

[Sir Brennen]

Not necessarily. Your declared action is to cast a spell, and you roll accordingly. Then, when your turn comes up you declare what you're casting - you start on that segment and it's going to take one segment per spell level, so if you're casting a fireball you'll finish 3 segments from now.

Ugh. So you wait for your turn to announce when your turn really is. Blech.

Also, Ewww (mostly for the word "segments").

 

[jgsugden]

Wow. Too easy to manipulate. I can't see using it.

 

[Lanefan]

Also, Ewww (mostly for the word "segments").

Fine.

Give us another term for the unit of time represented by one pip to the next in the initiative order; otherwise segments it is.

 

[Sir Brennen]

Give us another term for the unit of time represented by one pip to the next in the initiative order; otherwise segments it is.

Does it have to have a name? It doesn't in the current initiative system. It's just "You go on X".