D&D 5E UA Primeval Awareness Hysteria

[Lord Twig]

So you want it to be even better than monster radar, yet you want to conceal significant information from the player when that's not what the ability says it does. Some people are going to turn that into 20+ questions as they try to irk out every possible avenue for success or failure. Honestly now I think you're making it worse. Throw on how this manifests "in game" and how that irks some players and some DMs and it's just a mess.

What are you talking about?

It's monster radar only in the sense that you know the direction of your Favored Enemies within a one mile degree of certainty. And what am I concealing? The 3 rear guard scout troops are outside the Ranger's 5 mile range (although I guess I wasn't explicit in that) and he doesn't know about the wolves because his Favored Enemies is Humanoid, and wolves aren't humanoid. So it is great information, but it isn't 100 percent complete information. And both the character and player would know that.

It most certainly is not 20 questions. The DM is not limited to yes or no answers. Honestly I'm not sure what questions the Ranger's player would ask. The information I provided in my examples was everything that Primeval Awareness provides. If I missed something, then sure the player should point it out and, assuming he was right, I would clarify or add the missing information, but that certainly isn't 20 questions.

In game it manifests as a mystic ritual that "attunes your senses" so that you can sense your enemies within 5 miles. Why would that irk? Unless you want the "no magic" ranger, but that is not the base assumption for the ranger, which has spells by this level.

 

[Lord Twig]

For my player using the Low magic UA revised ranger, I just removed the ability. Possible ramifications? I have no idea. However, he hasn't been clamoring for a way to find everything within 6 miles. How would you even explain that range for a spell-less ranger?

You don't. Removing the ability was probably the correct decision. The original version required the expenditure of a spell slot. So it is pretty clear that it was intended to be a magical ability from the beginning.

And removing it certainly doesn't break the Ranger, but it is a cool and flavorful ability for the base class to have and makes it more distinct from the Fighter and Paladin.

 

[Lord Twig]

Speaking as someone who didn't think PA was great shakes when it came out, I changed my tune a bit after seeing it in play.

I don't think it's too powerful, exactly. Getting a sense of what favored enemies you have nearby isn't a bad Rangery thing to do, and it's bang-on effects include things like avoiding ambushes and following creatures around, which are Rangery things that Rangers should be able to do.

I do think the fact that it's at-will and reliable means that there's never any downside to just constantly using it. Which isn't great from a gameplay perspective - "always remember the ranger has perfect knowledge of every humanoid within 6 miles" is a pretty big demand to make on the DM.

I just checked and it's 5 miles. Not sure where this 6 miles thing is coming from. And it is not "perfect knowledge", the location of any individual creature or group of creatures could be off by up to a mile.

It's also worded in a way that's impossible to actually run at the table in any functional way. It is a very rare DM who has the precise knowledge of the demographics of any given six-mile radius of their campaign. I don't know what's within six miles because I haven't rolled for it yet. I can't tell you if there's X, Y, or Z within range. It's like Shrodinger's cat, I can't tell you if it's alive or dead until we open the box and find out together.

I think I have shown it is perfectly possible to play. I mean, would you put up with my asking for every detail of a ruined castle as we approached? I mean I see it, so start answering those questions! It's stone, but what kind of stone? What color? Is there moss growing on it? What color is the moss? Are there any fallen stones? Did the stones break? How big are the pieces?

I could go on, but what's the point? It is the same thing with Primeval Awareness. Sure, you can insist that the DM tell you exactly what beasts there are in a 5 mile radius, but there are probably thousands of them! Which ones do you really care about? I'll tell you about those.

While an answer like you suggest is vaguely functional, it nerfs the ability and sells it short. The Ranger as a character becomes aware of each of those creatures, and it's up to the Ranger to decide what to do with that information. It's a kludge that shouldn't have to be there.

Now you complain about my not giving you a list of the thousands of creatures in a 5 mile radius is a nerf, so your solution is to nerf the feature so the DM doesn't have to? How does that make sense? How about not nerfing it and just running it in a reasonable manner?

PA is a good idea that needs some development - pretty much what I'd expect out of a UA article.

I'm still playing the game where the UA ranger with that ability is a character, but every time she uses PA, I just sort of throw up my hands and end up answering specific questions. If that's the design intent of the ability, then it should be designed to reflect that intent, and not couch it in language that gives the Ranger character something that the players and the DM cannot possibly know themselves.

So I'll ask you the same question I asked above. How would you rewrite the ability? I can't think of a way without just arbitrarily limiting it. I would rather it be open for free use instead of having yet another ability that that must be tracked because of an arbitrary limit on its usage.

 

[Creamsteak]

I think you're talking to two people as if we are one person. This is mostly QED and has already been explained fairly well up thread and I'm not interested in getting into the pedantic of an exact wording argument. What you want to do isn't even what the ability does, so you already seem to fundamentally disagree with it in a practical way, but everything after that seems to be just muddying the waters to argue over which particular way it needs to be "fixed."

 

[Lord Twig]

I think you're talking to two people as if we are one person. This is mostly QED and has already been explained fairly well up thread and I'm not interested in getting into the pedantic of an exact wording argument. What you want to do isn't even what the ability does, so you already seem to fundamentally disagree with it in a practical way, but everything after that seems to be just muddying the waters to argue over which particular way it needs to be "fixed."

I replied to three different people yesterday. The fact that there were similar themes doesn't mean I have them confused.

The ability does not need to be "fixed", as you put it. If a Ranger wants to know about any Favored Enemies in range he can use his ability and, he does. "Okay. You now know the location of every beast in range. Now what?"

You seem very hung up on the idea that you must tell the player exactly what the Ranger knows, but you don't.

 

[ArchfiendBobbie]

You seem very hung up on the idea that you must tell the player exactly what the Ranger knows, but you don't.

Okay, I'm probably going to regret this, but...

How can the player of the ranger roleplay the ranger without knowing what the ranger knows?

 

[discosoc]

The core problem with the ability is that it places even more burden on the GM to know information that he may not have access to (possible random encounters), or commit to information that was never a sure thing (second wave of enemies if the first wave turns out too easy). The GM's job is already hard enough, and a hurdle for the RP community as a whole. We don't need more of these open-ended abilities that are probably lots of fun for players, but annoying at best for the GM.

It's not unworkable, by any means, but it has a lot of potential for screwing things up. Like, some of the suggestions in this thread are pretty entertaining (town full of undead), but those things could totally sidetrack a group of players into pursuing dead-end leads. An experienced GM could probably deal with that and start improvising the rest of the session, but how many others would struggle as they are forced out of their planned adventure? How many GM's would stop bothering to plan adventures at all, if they constantly get sidetracked? How many players would keep showing up if the campaign feels like it's getting derailed left and right, and little progress is being made just because the Ranger keeps throwing the GM off his game?

 

[SkidAce]

The core problem with the ability is that it places even more burden on the GM to know information that he may not have access to (possible random encounters), or commit to information that was never a sure thing (second wave of enemies if the first wave turns out too easy). The GM's job is already hard enough, and a hurdle for the RP community as a whole. We don't need more of these open-ended abilities that are probably lots of fun for players, but annoying at best for the GM.

It's not unworkable, by any means, but it has a lot of potential for screwing things up. Like, some of the suggestions in this thread are pretty entertaining (town full of undead), but those things could totally sidetrack a group of players into pursuing dead-end leads. An experienced GM could probably deal with that and start improvising the rest of the session, but how many others would struggle as they are forced out of their planned adventure? How many GM's would stop bothering to plan adventures at all, if they constantly get sidetracked? How many players would keep showing up if the campaign feels like it's getting derailed left and right, and little progress is being made just because the Ranger keeps throwing the GM off his game?

I like the ability, and saw no problem with it.

But these are valid points.

We need something in the middle as a solution.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Sure the Ranger isn't getting anything he wouldn't get from a Survival skill when there is nothing to find, but if he is looking for something in particular, that is when the ability shines.

For example, say a Ranger has Favored Enemy Humanoids and wants to scout a bandit camp. He can spend a minute and know which direction and how many miles away the bandit camp is and how many of bandits are in the camp.

ok let me tell you about the 1 time a PC used it in my game so far...

I have a series of caves that run under the mountains near the PC town...it was explained in and out of game as a huge labrynth... the PCs also know above in the mountains and next to it in the pass are monsters... I have random encounter tables set up for the pass and mountain and a set of encounters in the caves...

PC uses ability, and grinds my game to a halt... my answer "I don't know..."


within 5 miles of the PCs is the entire pass (it's less then 10 miles) multi layers of caves, and most of the mountain...and part of the valley even... so as a DM what am I to do? Do I roll out every random encounter to decide what is there?

 

[Hussar]

ok let me tell you about the 1 time a PC used it in my game so far...

I have a series of caves that run under the mountains near the PC town...it was explained in and out of game as a huge labrynth... the PCs also know above in the mountains and next to it in the pass are monsters... I have random encounter tables set up for the pass and mountain and a set of encounters in the caves...

PC uses ability, and grinds my game to a halt... my answer "I don't know..."


within 5 miles of the PCs is the entire pass (it's less then 10 miles) multi layers of caves, and most of the mountain...and part of the valley even... so as a DM what am I to do? Do I roll out every random encounter to decide what is there?

Let's be honest here though and presume that the player isn't a douche bag. ((As the above ranger player in [MENTION=2067]I'm A Banana[/MENTION]'s game, I hope I can say that )). The player wants to use the ability - it is a THING for this player. So, you've got an area of extensive cave systems. Now, the ability in no way tells you how to get from where you are to where something might ping. You might know that there is an undead (if that's the Favored Enemy) three miles away, but, good grief, you have three miles of cave systems between you and it. It's not terribly useful information is it?

In your particular situation, I would presume that you have some idea about nearby encounters, no? So, the Ranger pings. He knows where those set-piece encounters are, at least relative to his current position, even if he doesn't actually know how to get there.

I don't think any player would be terribly annoyed if you said, "Well, there's X undead here and Y undead there. You also notice a smattering of other undead wandering around in various directions. Judging by the distance and whatnot though, it's very unlikely you will meet them any time soon."

What's wrong with that answer? The ranger only gets two favored enemy types. One fairly common one and one that's likely not that common. I doubt there are masses of wandering demons in the area.

Now, if the Ranger pings his favored enemies and ten minutes down the road you roll a random encounter ambush with his favored enemy, well, maybe, just maybe it's time to reroll? I mean, you have random encounter tables, right? It's not like a given encounter must be encountered. So, if he pings undead, maybe just knock that mass of zombies off your random encounter table for a few hours of travel, and use a different number. Or, better yet, roll your random encounters at the beginning of the day, and the ranger gets fore warning of a random encounter. "Hey, you are pinging on undead right? Well, it appears that one of those random groups floating around has caught wind of you and now they're bearing down in your direction. What do you do?"

I'm really not sure why this is a big issue.