D&D 5E UA Samurai proposal: swap Fighting Spirit and Strength Before Death

[FormerlyHemlock]

Fighting Spirit is fun mechanically and encourages switch hitting (Sharpshooter AND Great Weapon?), but the flavor is weird: what does resistance to weapon damage have to do with Samurais? Why are they just plain better than other Fighters?


One thing you could do to fix this would be to swap Strength Before Death and Fighting Spirit. Strength Before Death could be the 3rd level ability--and it would probably get more use, since low-level PCs are the ones who are most likely to be knocked down to zero HP--and Fighting Spirit could be the 18th level capstone. At that level, other PCs are flying and turning invisible and being permanently resistant to weapon damage, etc., so Fighting Spirit no longer feels mechanically overpowered and it's easier to justify them being better than other Fighters. You could handwave it as a ki-focusing shout or something.

Thoughts?

 

[Tony Vargas]

Samurais? Why are they just plain better than other Fighters?

Because they are Japanese, obviously. Just like Katanas are better than other swords. I thought you'd played D&D before? ;P (Heck, if you played any RPG and/or read any comic an/or saw any of the "Ninja" movie franchise, back in the 80s you should be familiar with the paradigm...)

One thing you could do to fix this would be to swap Strength Before Death and Fighting Spirit. Thoughts?

Samurai could just be a re-skinned Knights. Aside from being into archery, and all the various cultural differences, they were armored feudal nobility fighting from horseback or afoot. Treating them so differently is arguably 'orientalism,' anyway.

:shrug:

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I confess that katanas were on my mind when I wrote that sentence.

Sly winks at orientalism aside: are there any substantive responses to the proposal? Is Strength Before Death too strong and/or unaesthetic for a level 3 ability? Is Fighting Spirit too weak as a capstone? Does not having Fighting Spirit available early on make the Samurai unaesthetic or unattractively unplayable? Is this all irrelevant anyway because Kobold Sharpshooter Eldritch Knights (using Enlarge to negate heavy weapon disadvantage) are the new black?

 

[Fritzo]

Sad thing about Strength Before Death is such a high level ability that most players won't get to use it, and yet it's so cool. I don't think your idea would feel better than the standard samurai though, you won't have any meaningful combat abilities to differentiate you from most fighters until you get rapid strike at 15th. Unless you are essentially dying lol, plus it's one use per long rest. Ultimately Fighting spirit will be more useful through a campaign.

But hell, try it. I'd make it three uses per short rest or something to compensate.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Is Strength Before Death too strong and/or unaesthetic for a level 3 ability? Is Fighting Spirit too weak as a capstone?

I'd gotten used to thinking of get out of death cards as epic level features in 4e, but thinking back, there were ordinary animals in the MM (boar & grizzly bear, IIRC) that could keep fighting into negatives...

I don't think strong/weak matters too much, you can always adjust...

...for instance, if Strength Before Death seems to powerful in play, just stop killing the Samurai so much.

 

[MechaPilot]

Fighting Spirit is fun mechanically and encourages switch hitting (Sharpshooter AND Great Weapon?), but the flavor is weird: what does resistance to weapon damage have to do with Samurais? Why are they just plain better than other Fighters?

They're not really "better" than other fighters, though. That samurai is giving up battlemaster maneuvers and enhanced critical strike ranges to get advantage and resistance until the end of their next turn.

 

[hejtmane]

Because they are Japanese, obviously. Just like Katanas are better than other swords. I thought you'd played D&D before? ;P (Heck, if you played any RPG and/or read any comic an/or saw any of the "Ninja" movie franchise, back in the 80s you should be familiar with the paradigm...)


Samurai could just be a re-skinned Knights. Aside from being into archery, and all the various cultural differences, they were armored feudal nobility fighting from horseback or afoot. Treating them so differently is arguably 'orientalism,' anyway.

:shrug:

Nailed it they even had heavy armor made from different material but much like plate mail heavy. The Katana' s had different length depending on the ryu and sometimes by the fight they had ones longer with longer handles made for use from the horse. Samurai where just as good at archery as they where the sword at one point. There bows are weird though you have a special glove with a thumb release. Any ways you nailed it on the head by a mile. Funny it also varied by era

 

[MechaTarrasque]

Because they are Japanese, obviously. Just like Katanas are better than other swords. I thought you'd played D&D before? ;P (Heck, if you played any RPG and/or read any comic an/or saw any of the "Ninja" movie franchise, back in the 80s you should be familiar with the paradigm...)


Samurai could just be a re-skinned Knights. Aside from being into archery, and all the various cultural differences, they were armored feudal nobility fighting from horseback or afoot. Treating them so differently is arguably 'orientalism,' anyway.

:shrug:

It is too bad they didn't put in a sidebar about how the samurai (and the knights) were based on movies and comic books instead of real samurai (and knights). It seems like that would have clarified so much.....

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

It is too bad they didn't put in a sidebar about how the samurai (and the knights) were based on movies and comic books instead of real samurai (and knights). It seems like that would have clarified so much.....

But they did.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

They're not really "better" than other fighters, though. That samurai is giving up battlemaster maneuvers and enhanced critical strike ranges to get advantage and resistance until the end of their next turn.

My main point wasn't about opportunity cost and game balance. I meant to talk about flavor. In what way is a Samurai's "Fighting Spirit" superior to anyone else's? What justifies resistance to weapon damage and advantage on all attacks? By "the flavor is weird... Why are they just plain better than other Fighters?" I don't mean, "Why is the Samurai class overpowered relative to other subclasses?" (Arguable, see below*, but not the point.) What I mean is, "what is the Samurai doing differently than a normal Fighter? Why does his fighting spirit grant him crazy bonuses that other Fighters' fighting spirits don't?"

* There's a judgment call involved of course, because there's a wide range of battlemaster maneuvers available and they all do different things. But if you do the math it's hard to find a scenario where battlemaster maneuvers are better than auto-advantage plus resistance to damage. E.g. Tripping Attack + Action Surge is a famously good usage of superiority dice, and it only gives you advantage on three attacks at 5th level, and you only get to do it once. If we eyeball Precise Strike as somewhat like having advantage on three attacks (overly generous IMO), then the Battlemaster kind of has advantage on twelve attacks per short rest, plus he can play the melee kiting game against his prone enemy after the Tripping Attack, which is sort of like having resistance to damage for one round. Resistance for one round and advantage on twelve attacks is worse than resistance for three rounds (and change) and advantage on twelve attacks, which is what the Samurai gets.

And of course the Samurai is far simpler to use. Most players wouldn't know how to properly leverage Tripping Attack offensively or defensively.

Samurai isn't better than Eldritch Knight though, and not better than some houseruled versions of the Champion. May not be better than the UA Knight.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

But they did.

Poe's Law strikes again!

 

[Tony Vargas]

My main point wasn't about opportunity cost and game balance. I meant to talk about flavor. In what way is a Samurai's "Fighting Spirit" superior to anyone else's?

In the same way a Rogue's Actions are more Cunning than anyone else's, I guess. They had to come up with a features to differentiate it and names for them. "Samurai Power 3, sub-paragraph ii" wouldn't have the same ring.

But, from another angle, your question is a catch-22 that can be leveled at any non-magical class ability.

What justifies resistance to weapon damage and advantage on all attacks?

That sounds pretty similar to barbarian rage...

There's a judgment call involved of course, because there's a wide range of battlemaster maneuvers available and they all do different things. But if you do the math it's hard to find a scenario where battlemaster maneuvers are better than auto-advantage plus resistance to damage.

Sounds like garden-variety power creep. If all the various sub-classes we've been getting ran off CS dice & Maneuvers and some/most/all of those Maneuvers were being added to the BM's list (the way Bladesinger Cantrips became available to other sub-classes), it wouldn't be /as/ bad (it'd still be bad because the BM gets so few maneuvers, so the superior ones would quickly crowd out everything else, of course).

 

[cbwjm]

I would not want them swapped. As a player, at level 3 I would want fighting spirit rather than an ability that requires me to get the kicked out of me before I can use it.

Sent from my SM-G925I using EN World mobile app

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Parenthetically, it's always a bit strange to see classes that have better level 2/3 abilities than level 18 abilities. You just know those classes are ripe for multiclass (ab)use, e.g. Samurai 3/Warlock X has some pretty awesome synergies. Arguably it's even better than a Warbearian (Barbarian 1-3/Bladelock X) due to less MADness, Action Surge, the way that Fighting Spirit (unlike Rage) doesn't prevent spellcasting (e.g. Armor of Agathys V + Fighting Spirit!), better AC (heavy armor + Defense style, no need for Reckless), and getting advantage on all attacks including Hexed Agonizing Repelling Eldritch Spear and/or attacks made after (Fighting Spirit + Action Surge: True Polymorph (Ancient White Dragon) + attack at advantage).

I would not want them swapped. As a player, at level 3 I would want fighting spirit rather than an ability that requires me to get the ---- kicked out of me before I can use it.

Thanks for the feedback. Here's a followup question: suppose you were playing in a game and the DM doesn't offer the UA Samurai because he thinks it's bloat/power creep, but he does offer the UA Samurai with the two abilities swapped. Would you ever play a Samurai, or would you stick with PHB Fighters?

 

[cbwjm]

Thanks for the feedback. Here's a followup question: suppose you were playing in a game and the DM doesn't offer the UA Samurai because he thinks it's bloat/power creep, but he does offer the UA Samurai with the two abilities swapped. Would you ever play a Samurai, or would you stick with PHB Fighters?

I would stick to the PHB fighter subclasses. Both the champion and the battlemaster gain something worth having at level 3. The fighter gains a passive increase to his critical threat range, the battlemaster gains superiority dice. Strength before Death is reactive and I feel doesn't fit well as an entry level ability for a subclass. I want an ability that actively helps me fulfil my role as a warrior in battle rather than a reactive ability that requires me to take a hit that will reduce me to 0 before using.

Edit: I hope that explains it, I feel like I'm having a bit of trouble finding the right words for my explanation.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I would stick to the PHB fighter subclasses. Both the champion and the battlemaster gain something worth having at level 3. The fighter gains a passive increase to his critical threat range, the battlemaster gains superiority dice. Strength before Death is reactive and I feel doesn't fit well as an entry level ability for a subclass. I want an ability that actively helps me fulfil my role as a warrior in battle rather than a reactive ability that requires me to take a hit that will reduce me to 0 before using.

Edit: I hope that explains it, I feel like I'm having a bit of trouble finding the right words for my explanation.

Thanks. If most people feel like you do, then it's probably a bit too much of a nerf. On the other hand, it sounds like you'd be happy with something about as strong as the Champion's expanded crit range (which is extraordinarily weak). So we could probably replace Fighting Spirit with something like "increase the damage you deal with any non-heavy weapon by one die size, to a maximum of d12". That's a lot stronger than the Champion ability, but still much weaker than the UA Fighting Spirit.

 

[MechaPilot]

I would stick to the PHB fighter subclasses. Both the champion and the battlemaster gain something worth having at level 3. The fighter gains a passive increase to his critical threat range, the battlemaster gains superiority dice. Strength before Death is reactive and I feel doesn't fit well as an entry level ability for a subclass. I want an ability that actively helps me fulfil my role as a warrior in battle rather than a reactive ability that requires me to take a hit that will reduce me to 0 before using.

Edit: I hope that explains it, I feel like I'm having a bit of trouble finding the right words for my explanation.

While I agree with you, I also feel that Strength Before Death might actually be more appropriate at lower levels. Given the relative fragility of low-level characters, a 3rd level fighter with Strength Before Death would probably see more use of that ability than a higher level character would. It would also have greater synergy with Second Wind, simply by virtue of Second Wind healing a larger fraction of your HPs at lower levels.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

I think the first-tier abilities of an archetype need to be defining and regularly used. Otherwise it doesn't feel like you're a member of the archetype. So something cool but very situational like Strength Before Death is not an appropriate 3rd-level fighter ability, in my eyes (although I do agree that it doesn't really need to be an epic-level fighter ability either). If Fighting Spirit is overpowered, just nerf it. It's still better conceptually at its level, as something you're likely going to use every fight.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

If all the various sub-classes we've been getting ran off CS dice & Maneuvers and some/most/all of those Maneuvers were being added to the BM's list (the way Bladesinger Cantrips became available to other sub-classes), it wouldn't be /as/ bad (it'd still be bad because the BM gets so few maneuvers, so the superior ones would quickly crowd out everything else, of course).

Yeah, that's why they don't do that.

 

[MechaPilot]

Thanks. If most people feel like you do, then it's probably a bit too much of a nerf. On the other hand, it sounds like you'd be happy with something about as strong as the Champion's expanded crit range (which is extraordinarily weak). So we could probably replace Fighting Spirit with something like "increase the damage you deal with any non-heavy weapon by one die size, to a maximum of d12". That's a lot stronger than the Champion ability, but still much weaker than the UA Fighting Spirit.

Technically, if we're using averages, increasing the die type by one step is a much greater increase than the expanded crit range.

Assuming a 30% chance of missing with an attack and critical hits only on a natural 20, a d8 weapon (4.5 avg) has a per swing average damage of 3.375* while a d10 weapon (5.5 avg) has a per swing average damage of 4.125.* A difference of 0.75 damage per swing.

If you compare a d8 weapon with crits at natural 20 only and crits at 19 and 20, you get the following average damages per swing: 3.375 and 3.6 (respectively). A difference of 0.225 damage per swing.

Increasing the die type by one step results in almost triple the per swing benefit of increasing the crit range one step.


*Average damage per swing is a weighted average covering all possible d20 results as follows:

1-6: miss: 0 * 0.3 = 0
7-19: normal hit: X * 0.65 = 0.65X
20: crit: 2X * 0.05 = 1X
Per swing weighted average of 0.75 X, where X is the average value of the damage die.