D&D 5E UA Samurai proposal: swap Fighting Spirit and Strength Before Death

[FormerlyHemlock]

But they did.

Poe's Law strikes again!

 

[Tony Vargas]

My main point wasn't about opportunity cost and game balance. I meant to talk about flavor. In what way is a Samurai's "Fighting Spirit" superior to anyone else's?

In the same way a Rogue's Actions are more Cunning than anyone else's, I guess. They had to come up with a features to differentiate it and names for them. "Samurai Power 3, sub-paragraph ii" wouldn't have the same ring.

But, from another angle, your question is a catch-22 that can be leveled at any non-magical class ability.

What justifies resistance to weapon damage and advantage on all attacks?

That sounds pretty similar to barbarian rage...

There's a judgment call involved of course, because there's a wide range of battlemaster maneuvers available and they all do different things. But if you do the math it's hard to find a scenario where battlemaster maneuvers are better than auto-advantage plus resistance to damage.

Sounds like garden-variety power creep. If all the various sub-classes we've been getting ran off CS dice & Maneuvers and some/most/all of those Maneuvers were being added to the BM's list (the way Bladesinger Cantrips became available to other sub-classes), it wouldn't be /as/ bad (it'd still be bad because the BM gets so few maneuvers, so the superior ones would quickly crowd out everything else, of course).

 

[cbwjm]

I would not want them swapped. As a player, at level 3 I would want fighting spirit rather than an ability that requires me to get the kicked out of me before I can use it.

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[FormerlyHemlock]

Parenthetically, it's always a bit strange to see classes that have better level 2/3 abilities than level 18 abilities. You just know those classes are ripe for multiclass (ab)use, e.g. Samurai 3/Warlock X has some pretty awesome synergies. Arguably it's even better than a Warbearian (Barbarian 1-3/Bladelock X) due to less MADness, Action Surge, the way that Fighting Spirit (unlike Rage) doesn't prevent spellcasting (e.g. Armor of Agathys V + Fighting Spirit!), better AC (heavy armor + Defense style, no need for Reckless), and getting advantage on all attacks including Hexed Agonizing Repelling Eldritch Spear and/or attacks made after (Fighting Spirit + Action Surge: True Polymorph (Ancient White Dragon) + attack at advantage).

I would not want them swapped. As a player, at level 3 I would want fighting spirit rather than an ability that requires me to get the ---- kicked out of me before I can use it.

Thanks for the feedback. Here's a followup question: suppose you were playing in a game and the DM doesn't offer the UA Samurai because he thinks it's bloat/power creep, but he does offer the UA Samurai with the two abilities swapped. Would you ever play a Samurai, or would you stick with PHB Fighters?

 

[cbwjm]

Thanks for the feedback. Here's a followup question: suppose you were playing in a game and the DM doesn't offer the UA Samurai because he thinks it's bloat/power creep, but he does offer the UA Samurai with the two abilities swapped. Would you ever play a Samurai, or would you stick with PHB Fighters?

I would stick to the PHB fighter subclasses. Both the champion and the battlemaster gain something worth having at level 3. The fighter gains a passive increase to his critical threat range, the battlemaster gains superiority dice. Strength before Death is reactive and I feel doesn't fit well as an entry level ability for a subclass. I want an ability that actively helps me fulfil my role as a warrior in battle rather than a reactive ability that requires me to take a hit that will reduce me to 0 before using.

Edit: I hope that explains it, I feel like I'm having a bit of trouble finding the right words for my explanation.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I would stick to the PHB fighter subclasses. Both the champion and the battlemaster gain something worth having at level 3. The fighter gains a passive increase to his critical threat range, the battlemaster gains superiority dice. Strength before Death is reactive and I feel doesn't fit well as an entry level ability for a subclass. I want an ability that actively helps me fulfil my role as a warrior in battle rather than a reactive ability that requires me to take a hit that will reduce me to 0 before using.

Edit: I hope that explains it, I feel like I'm having a bit of trouble finding the right words for my explanation.

Thanks. If most people feel like you do, then it's probably a bit too much of a nerf. On the other hand, it sounds like you'd be happy with something about as strong as the Champion's expanded crit range (which is extraordinarily weak). So we could probably replace Fighting Spirit with something like "increase the damage you deal with any non-heavy weapon by one die size, to a maximum of d12". That's a lot stronger than the Champion ability, but still much weaker than the UA Fighting Spirit.

 

[MechaPilot]

I would stick to the PHB fighter subclasses. Both the champion and the battlemaster gain something worth having at level 3. The fighter gains a passive increase to his critical threat range, the battlemaster gains superiority dice. Strength before Death is reactive and I feel doesn't fit well as an entry level ability for a subclass. I want an ability that actively helps me fulfil my role as a warrior in battle rather than a reactive ability that requires me to take a hit that will reduce me to 0 before using.

Edit: I hope that explains it, I feel like I'm having a bit of trouble finding the right words for my explanation.

While I agree with you, I also feel that Strength Before Death might actually be more appropriate at lower levels. Given the relative fragility of low-level characters, a 3rd level fighter with Strength Before Death would probably see more use of that ability than a higher level character would. It would also have greater synergy with Second Wind, simply by virtue of Second Wind healing a larger fraction of your HPs at lower levels.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

I think the first-tier abilities of an archetype need to be defining and regularly used. Otherwise it doesn't feel like you're a member of the archetype. So something cool but very situational like Strength Before Death is not an appropriate 3rd-level fighter ability, in my eyes (although I do agree that it doesn't really need to be an epic-level fighter ability either). If Fighting Spirit is overpowered, just nerf it. It's still better conceptually at its level, as something you're likely going to use every fight.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

If all the various sub-classes we've been getting ran off CS dice & Maneuvers and some/most/all of those Maneuvers were being added to the BM's list (the way Bladesinger Cantrips became available to other sub-classes), it wouldn't be /as/ bad (it'd still be bad because the BM gets so few maneuvers, so the superior ones would quickly crowd out everything else, of course).

Yeah, that's why they don't do that.

 

[MechaPilot]

Thanks. If most people feel like you do, then it's probably a bit too much of a nerf. On the other hand, it sounds like you'd be happy with something about as strong as the Champion's expanded crit range (which is extraordinarily weak). So we could probably replace Fighting Spirit with something like "increase the damage you deal with any non-heavy weapon by one die size, to a maximum of d12". That's a lot stronger than the Champion ability, but still much weaker than the UA Fighting Spirit.

Technically, if we're using averages, increasing the die type by one step is a much greater increase than the expanded crit range.

Assuming a 30% chance of missing with an attack and critical hits only on a natural 20, a d8 weapon (4.5 avg) has a per swing average damage of 3.375* while a d10 weapon (5.5 avg) has a per swing average damage of 4.125.* A difference of 0.75 damage per swing.

If you compare a d8 weapon with crits at natural 20 only and crits at 19 and 20, you get the following average damages per swing: 3.375 and 3.6 (respectively). A difference of 0.225 damage per swing.

Increasing the die type by one step results in almost triple the per swing benefit of increasing the crit range one step.


*Average damage per swing is a weighted average covering all possible d20 results as follows:

1-6: miss: 0 * 0.3 = 0
7-19: normal hit: X * 0.65 = 0.65X
20: crit: 2X * 0.05 = 1X
Per swing weighted average of 0.75 X, where X is the average value of the damage die.