D&D 5E UA Samurai proposal: swap Fighting Spirit and Strength Before Death

[FormerlyHemlock]

Technically, if we're using averages, increasing the die type by one step is a much greater increase than the expanded crit range. *snip* Increasing the die type by one step results in almost triple the per swing benefit of increasing the crit range one step.

Yes. That's why I called it "a lot stronger".

 

[MechaPilot]

Yes. That's why I called it "a lot stronger".

I just figured I'd supply some math on the issue. I had to work up tables like that in excel because I don't hand out +X weapons or armor but I still wanted to know how things like expanded crit range or higher die type stacked up against a +X modifier to hit and damage.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I just couldn't figure out why you qualified your remark with "technically, ...". It sounded like you thought you were contradicting someone.

 

[MechaPilot]

I just couldn't figure out why you qualified your remark with "technically, ...". It sounded like you thought you were contradicting someone.

I could have been more clear. I didn't mean "techincally" in the sense of "however" or as rebuttal. I meant it in the vein of "specifically" or as clarification.

 

[cbwjm]

Thanks. If most people feel like you do, then it's probably a bit too much of a nerf. On the other hand, it sounds like you'd be happy with something about as strong as the Champion's expanded crit range (which is extraordinarily weak). So we could probably replace Fighting Spirit with something like "increase the damage you deal with any non-heavy weapon by one die size, to a maximum of d12". That's a lot stronger than the Champion ability, but still much weaker than the UA Fighting Spirit.

I would definitely be happier with the increased crit chance over strength before death as it is constant ability that affects your combat potential (I mean, sure, it may never come up during a session due to the randomness of dice, but I find that to be part of the fun). The battlemaster is the opposite in that they have a limited use ability that is more reliable. The samurai's Fighting Spirit is similar to the battlemaster in that the player decides when to use the ability.

Your damage die increase I could see as a suitable entry level ability for a subclass, similar to the champion's increased crit chance (in that it is a constant passive ability).

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

An interesting house rule (or campaign-specific rule) could be to grant Strength Before Death to all PCs. This would be most suitable for a campaign which was explicitly "cinematic" and therefore okay with PCs having protagonist abilities just because they are protagonists.

 

[MechaPilot]

An interesting house rule (or campaign-specific rule) could be to grant Strength Before Death to all PCs. This would be most suitable for a campaign which was explicitly "cinematic" and therefore okay with PCs having protagonist abilities just because they are protagonists.

I wouldn't mind just adding that ability to all PCs if they were required to actually die afterward, thus making it an ability to take a final heroic act before dying.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I wouldn't mind just adding that ability to all PCs if they were required to actually die afterward, thus making it an ability to take a final heroic act before dying.

I think you're suggesting that the player chooses, upon hitting 0 HP, between "go down fighting! (bonus round)" and "pray for salvation (make death saves)". Is that right? If so, I like it.

But what would you do if the player's actions during the bonus round manage to prevent them from hitting 0 HP, e.g. by exercising Second Wind or starting to Rage? Let it stand per usual Strength Before Death rules?

 

[MechaPilot]

I think you're suggesting that the player chooses, upon hitting 0 HP, between "go down fighting! (bonus round)" and "pray for salvation (make death saves)". Is that right? If so, I like it.

But what would you do if the player's actions during the bonus round manage to prevent them from hitting 0 HP, e.g. by exercising Second Wind or starting to Rage? Let it stand per usual Strength Before Death rules?

No. Outside intervention (say from another party member) would be fine; self-instigated salvation would be right out (otherwise, it takes the bite out of the final heroic act before death). Remember, we're talking about just giving it to PCs in addition to their other stuff. If they were sacrificing something for it, then I wouldn't have a problem with self-salvation.

Maybe we could add it to the Tough feat. That's widely regard as a poor benefit for the cost of a feat. Adding the version that allows self-salvation to the Tough feat wouldn't be a problem in my eyes.

 

[Salamandyr]

I'm in agreement with both the sentiment that Fighting Spirit is too strong and that Strength before Death is inappropriate for a third level ability.

I don't like tying game mechanics up with cultural artifact ideas--even ones that are supposedly from "popular entertainment". That doesn't work for me.

Honestly the samurai class shores up pretty much every weak point I have in the fighter class...It'd be my go-to subclass if it wasn't tied up with cultural baggage.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

I don't like tying game mechanics up with cultural artifact ideas--even ones that are supposedly from "popular entertainment". That doesn't work for me.

So no dungeons or dragons in your Dungeons & Dragons campaign, then?

 

[cbwjm]

I tend not to get too hung up on the names. If playing in a dnd game based on feudal Japan, I can use the Knight as a daimyo's bodyguard with no issue. If playing a standard dnd game set in a forgotten realms-like setting then the Samurai can stand in as a tough as nails knight. Perhaps they are the members of an elite mercenary company that hires out to nobility or are members of a guard for a king.

The names are just a convenience that many people seem to get stuck on as being only able to be a single specific thing.

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[BookBarbarian]

I don't care about cultural baggage, but I definitely liked that Knight was a background instead of a class (two backgrounds actually if you use the Knight of the Order background form SCAG).

I would hate to have some player tell another player that they are not playing a real knight or Samurai if they don't choose that Archetype. As such I would prefer the names to be more generic if these archetypes are ever published.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

I really don't get why people get so hung up on the names of game features. To me a class is just a collection of mechanical abilities that I can use to best realize whatever character concept I have in mid, nothing more and nothing less.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I agree that there's no need to get hung up on names, alone. Mechanical support for a very specific concept implied by the name is another matter, as it might restrict the usefulness of the archetype to cover other concepts. But, then, the last we heard from Mr. Mearls on the topic of the poor fighter before we saw these archetypes was that the BM & Champion were being called 'too generic.' (Just keep swing'n that pendulum, I guess.)

And, while it's often overblown, something like a ninja or samurai or whatever might create the appearance of 'orientalism' or 'cultural theft.' (Thus the side-bar disclaimer, I assume.)

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I really don't get why people get so hung up on the names of game features. To me a class is just a collection of mechanical abilities that I can use to best realize whatever character concept I have in mid, nothing more and nothing less.

So it genuinely wouldn't matter to you if 5E had no Paladin, but did have a class called the Fanatic with subclasses (Path of the Self-Righteous, Path of the Blissful Ignorant, and Path of the Deranged) corresponding to Devotion/Ancients/Vengeance respectively, with appropriately slanted fluff? (Fanatics grant saving throw bonuses to their allies by virtue of their single-minded denial of reality, etc.)

If so, I would find that a little bit surprising. I don't think names matter hugely, but in a game which is ultimately about aesthetic preferences I think the psychological associations created by a name are at least mildly important to the way the game will play out.

People play games because they find the games cool. Different people find different stuff cool. Humans being what they are, it shouldn't surprise anyone to find that what you name something can affect the degree to which some people find it cool.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

I would hate to have some player tell another player that they are not playing a real knight or Samurai if they don't choose that Archetype.

Then make it clear in no uncertain terms that they are.

And, while it's often overblown, something like a ninja or samurai or whatever might create the appearance of 'orientalism' or 'cultural theft.' (Thus the side-bar disclaimer, I assume.)

I think if they got away with the monk, the samurai should be fine.

 

[BookBarbarian]

Then make it clear in no uncertain terms that they are.

Will do, but would prefer not to even have it come up.

I think if they got away with the monk, the samurai should be fine.

While certainly Eastern in theme, Monks exist across far more cultures than Samurai.

 

[cbwjm]

I agree that there's no need to get hung up on names, alone. Mechanical support for a very specific concept implied by the name is another matter, as it might restrict the usefulness of the archetype to cover other concepts. But, then, the last we heard from Mr. Mearls on the topic of the poor fighter before we saw these archetypes was that the BM & Champion were being called 'too generic.' (Just keep swing'n that pendulum, I guess.)

And, while it's often overblown, something like a ninja or samurai or whatever might create the appearance of 'orientalism' or 'cultural theft.' (Thus the side-bar disclaimer, I assume.)

I think the sidebar was so that players knew where the developers were gaining their inspiration from, popular culture as opposed to attempting historical accuracy.

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[Salamandyr]

So no dungeons or dragons in your Dungeons & Dragons campaign, then?

Holy hyperbole Bataman!