UK, Have you ever seen the Primal Order Books from WOTC?

[Ripzerai]

Have you read Fred Saberhagen's Books of Swords?

Nope. Should I?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

$0.02

I have the Primal Order books. Liked them. Used them mainly in conjunction with HERO. Had a blast. Don't think they'd work out so good with D20.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Rip!

Perhaps I've been reading Boing Boing and download mp3s too much, but I've become a huge open-content/file sharing advocate. I really think it's good publicity for anyone.

I'll ponder on it. I don't see very many rpg companies doing it that way.

We agree there. I think that's why I find you so frustrating - your extreme negativity toward the way I like to play.

I find this sort of comment amazing. Frankly I don't care how you play.

I've never criticized epic or divine-level play,

Well unless I am confusing you with your compatriot of like mind Shemeska, you have stated that there should be no stats for gods, and that Wizards of the Coast should not publish books on the matter.

but you get hugely excited whenever I talk about preserving some elements of mystery in the planes and start ranting about how I'm oppressing you.

Yes, but your interpretation of a preservation of mystery (where deities are concerned at any rate) is that WotC cannot bring out material on the subject, because that would destroy the mystery - even though it doesn't have to spoil the mystery for you if you don't read/buy those books! Basically what you are saying is that other people must game the same way you do - thats the stance I disagree with.

A proper game product should have dozens of story hooks which are nothing but mysteries for the DM to develop. Revealing everything you introduce is hugely destructive. Roleplaying is by its nature a do-it-yourself enterprise, and most DMs love reading alluring little tidbits that spark their imaginations.

I totally agree (in fact I have lots of trailing information and adventure ideas in my bestiary).

If a company develops everything themselves, what is there for a DM to do?

But how is explaining the basics behind divinity and having stats for individual gods explaining everything!? How is that everything!?

No book can explain everything! It would take an infinite page count. Does the Primal Order explain everything, does Deities & Demigods explain everything (you could argue D&Dg explains too little!)?

The more detail the better, but for every mystery that's explained at least two more should be added - look at James Jacobs' Demonicon articles. Every time he fleshes out some old reference from Planescape or 1st edition, he adds more references. That's good design.

I agree his articles are fantastic, but theres a difference between creating a rulebook and creating a book (or article) with elements based on those rules. A rulebook need more clarity than mystery.

That's why elements like the Lady of Pain - enigmatic figures that remain fresh because they're never detailed by anyone - are so useful.

But what if, in explaining the Lady of Pain you add two more mysteries.

I have never touted the explaination of everything, but I do tout the possibility that everything has an explaination.

Some things should have no purpose other than to be mysteries. Some things (like the Lady) should even stay mysteries - it makes the game world seem bigger and more magical if not everything can be explained. In a divine-level campaign, which is all about revealing things that were previously mysterious, this is more important than ever, or else the gods and religion become nothing more than a mortal adventuring party - less than that, since things at least feel magical to adventurers. Nothing more than a party of merchants and bureaucrats who have had all joy sucked from their lives.

Exactly. Divine Campaigns expose previous mysteries but in doing so creates new ones.

Of course not. Mystifying some things, definitely.

Absolutely.

 

[Mark CMG]

Howdy Mark!

Hope you have been keeping well? I know we haven't chatted in a while (I guess we have both been busy), but I still recall our miniatures painting chat night with fondness, and eveytime I see a miniature I wonder to myself how is me old mate Mark doing and have his brush skills improved under my admittedly brief and slipshod tutelage...if you could even call it that.

I saw some recent specular lighting and NMM (non-metalic metal) painted miniatures and just thought to myself, has progress moved on so much since I have been 'out of it'.

http://www.coolminiornot.com/37085

http://www.coolminiornot.com/64201

http://www.coolminiornot.com/88060

Still painting aplenty, my friend! Those are some fine examples. It's sometimes hard to jusify the time, though, with so many good, pre-painted minis now on the market. I guess I like, and use, both.

 

[kigmatzomat]

I have the Primal Order books. Liked them. Used them mainly in conjunction with HERO. Had a blast. Don't think they'd work out so good with D20.

I guess it depends on the amount of paperwork you want to deal with. D&Dg has a simplified TPO-like system for god building, relying on feats to provide the salient divine abilities. It isn't a conversion but is the core idea of "gods get to choose special abilities as they advance."

The main thing missing is the TPO primal flux system. I don't recall the exact process for gaining primal base but it seems like if you could use Divine Rank as a stand-in for base. You could then have an an XPH-like power point mechanic for flux. That would allow you to have the high holy days, sacrifices, and rites that granted gods temporary power boosts.

 

[Ripzerai]

Well unless I am confusing you with your compatriot of like mind Shemeska, you have stated that there should be no stats for gods, and that Wizards of the Coast should not publish books on the matter.

I'm saying that Deities & Demigods would have been more useful if it had concentrated on information usable in a wider variety of campaigns. The information on their church, clerics, myths, and so on take precedence, since they're usable at all levels of play.

I'm not saying WotC shouldn't ever introduce divine-level rules, just that I'm not personally interested in them and they shouldn't put the cart before the horse. Also, I think clay tablets are much more flavorful than books - they make better visual aids. WotC should try those out for a change.

HOWEVER, let's imagine an alternate world where I did recommend that WotC should stay as far away from play beyond, say, 40th level as possible. What would be wrong with that? If they decided that it was advisable for them to obey my every whim, it'd give you a monopoly over the market. I don't see what you're complaining about.

Let's imagine a different parallel universe instead, one where people often ask WotC for completely contradictory things - some want more psionics, some want no psionics, some want prestige classes, some want no more prestige classes, some want detailed stats on uber-uber-uber-ubergods and some aren't interested in play past 12th level, and ask WotC to stick to lower level adventures instead. I think we may be living in that universe, come to think of it. I'm okay with that.

your interpretation of a preservation of mystery (where deities are concerned at any rate) is that WotC cannot bring out material on the subject, because that would destroy the mystery

No, no. Two completely different arguments. It preserves mystery to leave some things unstatted, not everything.

But what if, in explaining the Lady of Pain you add two more mysteries.

Depends on the execution. They would have to be really awesome mysteries to justify that level of destruction - why replace the Lady of Pain with the even more enigmatic Lords of Agony and Bliss when I already have the Lady?

I'll ponder on it. I don't see very many rpg companies doing it that way.

WotC does, and whoever made Big Eyes Small Mouth d20. The thing is, if a given rules set are explained only in a small-press rulebook that not everyone has, it's harder for people to share their ideas concerning it with others - for example, if I started posting stats for all (or many of) the gods using The Primal Order rules, only a few people would understand them and fewer still would actually use them in a game. But if basic system was readily available for free download, a lot of people who were curious could figure out what I was talking about and might even get curious enough to look for a copy of the book, especially if it were in print. If it was all open content and readily available, other companies could also make use of the rules in whole or in small measures and all that money would fuel more sales of your core rulebook. A lot of people might like to produce scenarios and supplements for divine and supradivine-level games, and they're hampered only by the lack of good rules commonly accepted as the industry standard. But I'm just musing aloud here - I haven't done surveys or anything.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Rip!

I'm saying that Deities & Demigods would have been more useful if it had concentrated on information usable in a wider variety of campaigns. The information on their church, clerics, myths, and so on take precedence, since they're usable at all levels of play.

I'm not saying WotC shouldn't ever introduce divine-level rules,

If they do that though, wouldn't they do it in a book called Deities & Demigods, while perhaps religious information would be more at home in, say, the Complete Divine?

just that I'm not personally interested in them and they shouldn't put the cart before the horse.

But there are numerous other books where we could have the information you want, added to which most of the information doesn't change from one edition to the next. I mean I bet very little of the information from Faiths & Avatars changed for Faiths and Pantheons for instance. Whereas as the mechanics/stats do change significantly.

Also, I think clay tablets are much more flavorful than books - they make better visual aids. WotC should try those out for a change.

See that wouldn't work for me, as you wouldn't get enough crunch with them...until they got smashed that is.

HOWEVER, let's imagine an alternate world where I did recommend that WotC should stay as far away from play beyond, say, 40th level as possible.

The world of 2nd Edition.

What would be wrong with that?

Nothing would be wrong with it, though I would argue (as I have been doing) that the approach was illogical.

If they decided that it was advisable for them to obey my every whim, it'd give you a monopoly over the market. I don't see what you're complaining about.

Well for a start, I like reading epic/immortal products. Its okay creating my own, but there are no surprises in store for me doing that.

Also it would be a monopoly over a much smaller market, given WotCs distribution and advertising.

Let's imagine a different parallel universe instead, one where people often ask WotC for completely contradictory things - some want more psionics, some want no psionics, some want prestige classes, some want no more prestige classes, some want detailed stats on uber-uber-uber-ubergods and some aren't interested in play past 12th level, and ask WotC to stick to lower level adventures instead. I think we may be living in that universe, come to think of it. I'm okay with that.

Beyond the core rulebooks you are never going to get a book that everyone wants. Which means that you are constantly trying to come up with books that appeal to as high a percentage of interested gamers as possible without repeating yourself. Eventually

Depends on the execution. They would have to be really awesome mysteries to justify that level of destruction - why replace the Lady of Pain with the even more enigmatic Lords of Agony and Bliss when I already have the Lady?

...because roleplaying is about making the impossible possible.

WotC does, and whoever made Big Eyes Small Mouth d20.

I check WotC fairly regular and I cannot remember too many instances of this, and I am thinking of recent examples like Incarnum and Weapons of Legacy.

The thing is, if a given rules set are explained only in a small-press rulebook that not everyone has, it's harder for people to share their ideas concerning it with others - for example, if I started posting stats for all (or many of) the gods using The Primal Order rules, only a few people would understand them and fewer still would actually use them in a game. But if basic system was readily available for free download, a lot of people who were curious could figure out what I was talking about and might even get curious enough to look for a copy of the book, especially if it were in print. If it was all open content and readily available, other companies could also make use of the rules in whole or in small measures and all that money would fuel more sales of your core rulebook. A lot of people might like to produce scenarios and supplements for divine and supradivine-level games, and they're hampered only by the lack of good rules commonly accepted as the industry standard. But I'm just musing aloud here - I haven't done surveys or anything.

Elements of the book are going to be Open Content, I just haven't decided exactly which parts yet (I have for the Bestiary - since the texts all done for that).

 

[elforcelf]

Make all open content!