Ultimate Guide to Ambiguous/Problem Rules
CRGreathouse
Community Supporter
Artoomis said:
I think the real question is: Can Rapid Shot be combined with two weapon use if the user takes the (brutal) two-weapon penalties? I don't think so, but I don't know that the stance can be backed up with rules.
Artoomis
First Post
CRGreathouse said:
Well, Rapid Shot = 1 extra shot per round with ranged weapon, but only with a full-attack action.
Two-weapon fighting gives no benefit for ranged weapons, but let's you draw a second weapon in the time it would take you to draw one weapon. I guess you'd have to have Quick Draw to be able to get any weapons drawn for Rapid Shot, so it seems superfluous unless a DM ruled you could only Quick Draw one weapon per round.
You could use all three feats together to get two thrown weapons per round. Kind of expensive just for that, though it could possibly be handy for a low level fighter who would get other benefits from the feats anyway.
I'll modify my answer a bit and include these rules to make it crystal clear. This is definately one of the easier ones!
Cloudgatherer
First Post
As for #2, the sage has commented a bit on True Strike, Detect Invisible, and Discern Location. The first two responses are here on this board and the third is in the D&D FAQ.
Sage response on True Strike and other Mind Blank questions:
http://www.enworld.org/messageboards/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4786
#4 (Against) Can't remember where, but I have seen an offical answer on this. Shields are armor, therefore monks lose their AC Wis bonus.
#6 - Sage has said "no 2 5-foot steps" and the response was posted here. I disagree, and I don't really want to find that thread again.....
#12 - Sage commented on this too and his response posted here. The sage has said the X/- does not negate DR. Good example of this is the dwarven defender's DR ability, it just says "Damage Reduction (3)" and 3/- is the shorthand notation use for the barbarian, it seems.
#16 - If anyone knows more about timestop, let me know! IIRC, everything works during a time stop, just durations don't start until TS is over. That includes instantaneous, so you can hang a hanful of fireballs in the air and let them strike when TS is over.
#25 - Sage has said "replace" and Monte (I think) said stack for the extra damage dice. I think "replace" is the by the book way to do it, and makes sense IMO.
#29 - Monte, who did that part of the book, said "free" means "no scribing cost".
Hope that helps!
Sage response on True Strike and other Mind Blank questions:
http://www.enworld.org/messageboards/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4786
#4 (Against) Can't remember where, but I have seen an offical answer on this. Shields are armor, therefore monks lose their AC Wis bonus.
#6 - Sage has said "no 2 5-foot steps" and the response was posted here. I disagree, and I don't really want to find that thread again.....
#12 - Sage commented on this too and his response posted here. The sage has said the X/- does not negate DR. Good example of this is the dwarven defender's DR ability, it just says "Damage Reduction (3)" and 3/- is the shorthand notation use for the barbarian, it seems.
#16 - If anyone knows more about timestop, let me know! IIRC, everything works during a time stop, just durations don't start until TS is over. That includes instantaneous, so you can hang a hanful of fireballs in the air and let them strike when TS is over.
#25 - Sage has said "replace" and Monte (I think) said stack for the extra damage dice. I think "replace" is the by the book way to do it, and makes sense IMO.
#29 - Monte, who did that part of the book, said "free" means "no scribing cost".
Hope that helps!
If the 1d10 for a burst weapon replaces the 1d6 regular damage then burst is only a +1.06 equivalent instead of the +1.16 (1.7 under optimal conditions)equivalent it is now. Too strong to be a +1 weapon feature but far too weak to be a +2 weapon feature. You can get +2d6 on every attack for +2 weapon equivalents vs 1d10 only on a critical? Obviously Monte is correct in that the damage stacks.
If you want to stick to replacing damage, burst really should just be a flat +1000 gc to the weapon cost. Overpriced for +2-+4 weapons, underpriced for +6 and up. I suppose you could say +2000 gc for burst if the weapon is +6 or higher then it would always be overpriced in a more balanced fashion for all weapons. OA introduced a nice concept of flat value weapon enhancements instead of making every enhancement exponential when the value was fairly fixed. Double the cost for each additional instance of burst power in the weapon to limit abuse. (a 5 burst weapon would cost 2+4+8+16+32=62k extra for the bursts over a normal +6 weapon rather than the absurd +11 equivalent under the current rules) You can see that this is still relatively underpowered when compared to vorpal as a +5 equivalent. This is a little more complicated that the typical house rule.
L shaped charges are only allowed if you have the feat. The sage said if you move and ready a charge the charge must be in the same direction as your original movement for the round.
Rapid shot can be combined with any other feat, simply add the -2 to every attack. This is explicitly declared in the latest dragon in this month's sage advice power play.
The 5' step is meant to represent the minor maneuvering that goes on in combat. Nothing gives a larger/extra 5' step except extreme tumbling from OA at DC 40.
If you want to stick to replacing damage, burst really should just be a flat +1000 gc to the weapon cost. Overpriced for +2-+4 weapons, underpriced for +6 and up. I suppose you could say +2000 gc for burst if the weapon is +6 or higher then it would always be overpriced in a more balanced fashion for all weapons. OA introduced a nice concept of flat value weapon enhancements instead of making every enhancement exponential when the value was fairly fixed. Double the cost for each additional instance of burst power in the weapon to limit abuse. (a 5 burst weapon would cost 2+4+8+16+32=62k extra for the bursts over a normal +6 weapon rather than the absurd +11 equivalent under the current rules) You can see that this is still relatively underpowered when compared to vorpal as a +5 equivalent. This is a little more complicated that the typical house rule.
L shaped charges are only allowed if you have the feat. The sage said if you move and ready a charge the charge must be in the same direction as your original movement for the round.
Rapid shot can be combined with any other feat, simply add the -2 to every attack. This is explicitly declared in the latest dragon in this month's sage advice power play.
The 5' step is meant to represent the minor maneuvering that goes on in combat. Nothing gives a larger/extra 5' step except extreme tumbling from OA at DC 40.
Last edited:
RedShirtNo5
First Post
TWF and thrown melee weapons
OK, I suggested adding #23 to the list, so I'll provide a complete explanation why.
I agree with Spikey that two weapon fighting is only for melee combat, but there was a debate at one time.
CRGreathouse - I didn't find any rule support at all for the idea that you can't combine an extra off-hand thrown weapon with an extra attack from rapid shot. You need quick draw and take large penalty, but I can't see anything prohibiting it. I would say that you can't use rapid shot with each hand - the feat gives you only "one" extra attack.
Artoomis, submitted for your consideration.
-RedShirt
23. How does fighting with two weapons work with thrown melee weapons?
Best Advice: You can get an extra attack by throwing a weapon using your off hand. However, the Two Weapon Fighting feat does not reduce the penalties for fighting with two weapons in this circumstance [disputed issue 1]. You can draw a second weapon in the time it would take to draw one weapon. You can also use rapid shot to get an extra attack with one of your hands [disputed issue 2].
Results:
A 6th level fighter with Rapid Shot and Quick Draw could throw 3 daggers (three from the primary hand) at +4/+4/-1.
A 6th level fighter with TWF, Ambidexterity and Quick Draw could throw 3 daggers (two from the primary hand, one from the off hand) at +2/-3/+2.
A 6th level fighter with TWF, Ambidexterity, Rapid Shot and Quick Draw could throw 4 daggers (three from the primary hand, one from the off hand) at +0/+0/-5/+0.
The Rules:
PHB p. 96 "Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee. "
PHB p. 100 "The Two-Weapon Fighting feat does not reduce these penalties because it represents skill with melee weapons, not ranged weapons."
PHB p. 128 "If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, a combatant can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one."
The Sage: Thown melee weapons are treated as ranged weapons for both Two-Weapon Fighting (i.e., feat does not help reduce penalties) and for Rapid Shot (i.e., feat does permit extra attack (assuming you have quickdraw)).
Other WotC/former WotC opinions: An example in Dragon discusses using rapid show to throw a weapon after making melee attacks with TWF. Penalties were -2 for all attacks.
Argument Against(1): Nowhere is it stated that "The Two-Weapon Fighting feat is only for melee combat." The only rule is that "The Two-Weapon Fighting feat ... represents skill with melee weapons, not ranged weapons." The definition on PHB p.96 is that "Ranged weapons are [thrown weapons or projectile weapons] that are not effective in melee" (parsing added). Daggers, hand axes and the like are "effective in melee". Therefore, daggers should be classified as melee weapons, regardless of whether they are thown or not. Consequently, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat reduces the penalties if you try to thow daggers from both your primary and off hand.
Argument Against(2): Permitting extra attacks from both Rapid Shot and an off-hand attack is too powerful.
Argument For(1): The above argument places too much emphasis on the definition on PHB p.96. The real issue is the concept of ranged attacks and melee attacks. Whether a weapon is a ranged weapon or a melee weapon can depend on how it is being used. Even focusing on the definition, it can be parsed as "Ranged weapons are [thrown weapons] or [projectile weapons that are not effective in melee]." Thus, thrown melee weapons should count as ranged weapons when they are used for a ranged attack. Consequently, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat does not reduce the penalties if you try to thow daggers from both your primary and off hand.
Argument For (2): The rules are silent and provide no reason to prohibit getting extra attacks from both Rapid Shot and your off-hand. Also, combining an off-hand attack with rapid shot gives 2 extra attacks at -6, which is worse than the -5 penalty that Monks get for Lightning Fists in S&F.
Area of Agreement: Throwable melee weapons count as melee weapons when being drawn. Thus, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one.
[edit to get rid of a double negative, add issue #2]
OK, I suggested adding #23 to the list, so I'll provide a complete explanation why.
I agree with Spikey that two weapon fighting is only for melee combat, but there was a debate at one time.
CRGreathouse - I didn't find any rule support at all for the idea that you can't combine an extra off-hand thrown weapon with an extra attack from rapid shot. You need quick draw and take large penalty, but I can't see anything prohibiting it. I would say that you can't use rapid shot with each hand - the feat gives you only "one" extra attack.
Artoomis, submitted for your consideration.
-RedShirt
23. How does fighting with two weapons work with thrown melee weapons?
Best Advice: You can get an extra attack by throwing a weapon using your off hand. However, the Two Weapon Fighting feat does not reduce the penalties for fighting with two weapons in this circumstance [disputed issue 1]. You can draw a second weapon in the time it would take to draw one weapon. You can also use rapid shot to get an extra attack with one of your hands [disputed issue 2].
Results:
A 6th level fighter with Rapid Shot and Quick Draw could throw 3 daggers (three from the primary hand) at +4/+4/-1.
A 6th level fighter with TWF, Ambidexterity and Quick Draw could throw 3 daggers (two from the primary hand, one from the off hand) at +2/-3/+2.
A 6th level fighter with TWF, Ambidexterity, Rapid Shot and Quick Draw could throw 4 daggers (three from the primary hand, one from the off hand) at +0/+0/-5/+0.
The Rules:
PHB p. 96 "Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee. "
PHB p. 100 "The Two-Weapon Fighting feat does not reduce these penalties because it represents skill with melee weapons, not ranged weapons."
PHB p. 128 "If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, a combatant can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one."
The Sage: Thown melee weapons are treated as ranged weapons for both Two-Weapon Fighting (i.e., feat does not help reduce penalties) and for Rapid Shot (i.e., feat does permit extra attack (assuming you have quickdraw)).
Other WotC/former WotC opinions: An example in Dragon discusses using rapid show to throw a weapon after making melee attacks with TWF. Penalties were -2 for all attacks.
Argument Against(1): Nowhere is it stated that "The Two-Weapon Fighting feat is only for melee combat." The only rule is that "The Two-Weapon Fighting feat ... represents skill with melee weapons, not ranged weapons." The definition on PHB p.96 is that "Ranged weapons are [thrown weapons or projectile weapons] that are not effective in melee" (parsing added). Daggers, hand axes and the like are "effective in melee". Therefore, daggers should be classified as melee weapons, regardless of whether they are thown or not. Consequently, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat reduces the penalties if you try to thow daggers from both your primary and off hand.
Argument Against(2): Permitting extra attacks from both Rapid Shot and an off-hand attack is too powerful.
Argument For(1): The above argument places too much emphasis on the definition on PHB p.96. The real issue is the concept of ranged attacks and melee attacks. Whether a weapon is a ranged weapon or a melee weapon can depend on how it is being used. Even focusing on the definition, it can be parsed as "Ranged weapons are [thrown weapons] or [projectile weapons that are not effective in melee]." Thus, thrown melee weapons should count as ranged weapons when they are used for a ranged attack. Consequently, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat does not reduce the penalties if you try to thow daggers from both your primary and off hand.
Argument For (2): The rules are silent and provide no reason to prohibit getting extra attacks from both Rapid Shot and your off-hand. Also, combining an off-hand attack with rapid shot gives 2 extra attacks at -6, which is worse than the -5 penalty that Monks get for Lightning Fists in S&F.
Area of Agreement: Throwable melee weapons count as melee weapons when being drawn. Thus, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one.
[edit to get rid of a double negative, add issue #2]
Last edited:
IceBear
Explorer
I think it was the latest Dragon that had an example of someone combining Rapid Shot with melee attacks - some rationale that it gives you an extra missle attack, but they all don't have to be missle attacks, and thus you could be using TwF with a sword and dagger, and then throw the dagger - all attacks would suffer the extra -2 penalty from Rapid Shot.
IceBear
IceBear
