Unarmed combat feats

[Nifft]

That's why I compare it to what a similar feat would give me and gave it similar benefits.

What I'm objecting to is comparing it to the best feat of that type, and then ignoring the cost benefits. (When all PCs start out with exactly 100 gp, saving 25 is a relatively big deal.)

The cost issue gets more complicated as we look at higher levels, where magic items are expected.

It's interesting how the context "who do you think will use this feat the most" can change our idea of balance of a feat.

Well, of course -- it's impossible to balance a feat without considering it in context!

Anyway, yeah, I agree that it's best suited to an adaptation of an existing class, or a sub-system (sort of a "multiclass-only" class and power list).

Cheers, -- N

 

[Zero Cochrane]

Hi all!
I posted my set of feats for Martial Arts in another thread some time ago. I can't find the thread anymore, so here it is again (with some slight revisions).
Please forgive any weird formatting. I'm still new to this thing.

--

D&D 4e
MARTIAL ARTS FEATS – by Zero Cochrane

Note: These feats may be revised depending on new official rules for unarmed combat.

HEROIC TIER
The feats below are available to a character of any level who meets the prerequisites.

Agile Defense I
You are adept at dodging attacks.
Prerequisite: Dexterity 13, Martial Arts I
Benefit: If you are wearing armor no heavier than cloth, you gain a +1 feat bonus to Armor Class and to Reflex defense.

Blocking Defense I
You can block blows as if using a light shield.
Prerequisites: Strength 13, Dexterity 13, Martial Arts I
Benefit: If you are not using a shield, you gain a +1 shield bonus to Armor Class and to Reflex defense.

Martial Arts I
You are adept at fighting unarmed.
Benefit: You gain a +2 proficiency bonus to attack rolls with your unarmed attacks. In addition, damage dealt by your unarmed attacks increases by one die step: 1d4 becomes 1d6. The die becomes two dice when you reach 21st level. This may be used as a basic attack (see page 287 of the Player's Handbook).
Special: Your unarmed attack is a natural weapon. You are considered to be wielding an off-hand melee weapon in each hand for the purpose of prerequisites and requirements for feats and powers that use weapons. A ranger can use unarmed attacks in place of wielding two melee weapons. A rogue can use an unarmed attack instead of wielding a light blade.

Versatile Unarmed Strike
You employ a variety of unarmed fighting styles, allowing you to alter the type of damage your attacks deal.
Prerequisite: Strength 13, Martial Arts I
Benefit: Your unarmed attacks deal your choice of bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage. As a result, you can optimize the effect of each strike. You cause +1 damage when you hit with an unarmed attack.
Special: You may use this feat to satisfy the prerequisites and requirements for any feat or power that requires the use of any specific type of melee weapon, unless your weapon must have the Reach property. You may apply the Weapon Focus feat to unarmed attacks.


PARAGON TIER
Any feat in this section is available to a character of 11th level or higher who meets the prerequisites.

Agile Defense II
You are experienced at dodging attacks.
Prerequisite: Dexterity 13, Agile Defense I, Martial Arts I
Benefit: If you are wearing armor no heavier than cloth, you gain an additional +1 feat bonus (for a total of +2) to Armor Class and to Reflex defense.

Blocking Defense II
You can block blows as if using a heavy shield.
Prerequisites: Strength 13, Dexterity 13, Blocking Defense I, Martial Arts I
Benefit: If you are not using a shield, you gain an additional +1 shield bonus (for a total of +2) to Armor Class and to Reflex defense.

Martial Arts II
You are experienced at fighting unarmed.
Prerequisite: Martial Arts I
Benefit: You gain an additional +2 proficiency bonus (for a total of +4) to attack rolls with your unarmed attacks. In addition, damage dealt by your unarmed attacks increases by one die step: 1d6 becomes 1d8. As with other basic attacks, the die becomes two dice when you reach 21st level.


EPIC TIER
Any feat in this section is available to a character of 21st level or higher who meets the prerequisites.

Agile Defense III
You are accomplished at dodging attacks.
Prerequisite: Dexterity 13, Agile Defense I, Agile Defense II, Martial Arts I
Benefit: If you are wearing armor no heavier than cloth, you gain an additional +2 feat bonus (for a total of +4) to Armor Class and to Reflex defense.

Blocking Defense III
You can block blows as if using an enhanced shield.
Prerequisites: Strength 13, Dexterity 13, Blocking Defense I, Blocking Defense II, Martial Arts I
Benefit: If you are not using a shield, you gain an additional +2 shield bonus (for a total of +4) to Armor Class and to Reflex defense.

Martial Arts III
You are accomplished at fighting unarmed.
Prerequisite: Martial Arts I, Martial Arts II
Benefit: You gain an additional +2 proficiency bonus (for a total of +6) to attack rolls with your unarmed attacks. In addition, damage dealt by your unarmed attacks increases by one die step: 1d8 becomes 1d10. As with other basic attacks, this die becomes two dice because you have reached 21st level.

--

 

[pukunui]

Wow, ZC! I like those! Much better than mine.

 

[chronoplasm]

A couple of ideas...

Throwing Elbows
Prerequisites: Martial Arts
You can perform unarmed strikes as minor actions.

Rumble
Prerequisites: Martial Arts
Whenever an enemy gets to make an opportunity attack against you, you get an opportunity attack against that enemy with an unarmed strike.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

What I'm objecting to is comparing it to the best feat of that type, and then ignoring the cost benefits. (When all PCs start out with exactly 100 gp, saving 25 is a relatively big deal.)

I am not sure I get this cost comparison...

Aargh! I can't decide! Both of your arguments make sense to me.

A "compromise" I can see is that taking the feat gives you the benefits of your unarmed strike being equivalent to a military weapon (+2 proficiency, 1d6 damage, off-hand property as a suggestion) and use it as a prerequisite for later feats that improve the strike. Of course, I am not sure if using a feat as a prerequisite is such a good idea in the first place. Certainly don't try to build an entire feat tree. Only someone really dedicated to fighting unarmed would take these, and these would rise the benefits to superior melee weapons.

Combat Martial Arts
Prerequisite: Str13+, Dex13+
Your unarmed strikes gain a +2 proficiency bonus and their damage increases by one die size (1d6 for medium size creatures) and gains the off-hand property.

Cutting Strike
Prerequisite: Dex13+, Combat Martial Arts
Your unarmed strike gain a +3 proficiency bonus and you can treat them as light blade or Axe if this is beneficial for you.

Iron Fist
Prerequisite: Con 13+, Combat Martial Arts
Your unarmed strike damage increases by an additional die size (1d8 for medium size creatures) and you can treat them as hammer or mace if this is beneficial for you.

Defensive Martial Arts
Prerequisite: Combat Martial Arts, Dex13+
While fighting with cloth armor and no shield, you gain a +1 bonus to AC and Reflex Defense.

Masterful Defensive Martial Arts (Paragon)
Prerequisite: Defense Martial Arts, Dex15+
While fighting with cloth armor and no shield, you gain a +1 bonus to AC and Reflex Defense. This stacks with the benefit of Defense Martial Arts.

Exceptional Defensive Martial Arts (Epic)
Prerequisite: Defense Martial Arts, Dex17+
While fighting with cloth armor and no shield, you gain a +1 bonus to AC and Reflex Defense. This stacks with the benefit of Defense Martial Arts and Masterful Defensive Arts.

Variant for the Defense Martial Arts: Increase the benefits to +2 and +3 for paragon and epic respectively, but don't allow stacking - this way, characters can retrain the old feat.

I was also tempted to make the benefits dependent on the kind of armor you are proficient in - anyone trained with heavy armor might gain a +2 bonus instead of just +1.
Maybe something like this:

Defensive Martial Arts (Heroic, Retraining Feat*)
Prerequisite: Combat Martial Arts, Dex 13+
Benefit: You lose all armor and shield proficiency training except cloth.
When wearing cloth armor and no shield, you gain a defensive bonus to AC and Reflex defense dependent on the armor you were proficient in:
Cloth, Leather: +1
Hide, Chain or Light Shield: +2
Scale, Plate or Heavy Shield: +3
Special: If you have or later take any feats that grant proficiency in armor or shields, they grant no benefit until you have retrained this feat for something else.

I am not convinced this gives always "balanced" results.

*) I am calling this out as a special keyword because the idea is that you retrain fundamental aspects of your character, like class abilities.

Sigh ... maybe I'll just wait and see if there's anything for unarmed combatants in Martial Power.

Or that.

Wow, ZC! I like those! Much better than mine.

Or that.

 

[pukunui]

To be totally honest, all I was actually thinking of initially was making unarmed combat more interesting in terms of bar brawls and fist fights and the like. I wasn't actually thinking in terms of an actual martial artist, although one of those would certainly be nice (but I'm sure WotC will put one out eventually).

Let's not forget the unarmed dwarf combatant statted out in the DMG. We could probably extrapolate a few things from his statblock.

 

[Nifft]

I am not sure I get this cost comparison...

Giving away a free club = fine.
Giving away a free rapier = not okay.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Giving away a free club = fine.
Giving away a free rapier = not okay.

Cheers, -- N

I am still not sure how to apply this to the examples. Maybe it's too late or something or I am not seeing it in the right context.

First off, it's not a free, it always costs a feat. A feat can buy you a Longsword or a Handaxe, or it can buy you a Rapier or a Bastard Sword. But it doesn't matter what kind of weapon you can use so far, you can get all these alternatives for the same price.

So, should a unarmed strike be "balanced" against the Longsword or against he Bastard Sword?
You say against the Longsword, because it otherwise makes fighting unarmed a non-issue and never a worse choice then picking a weapon.*
I say that the scenario of unintentionally fighting unarmed is too rare to "force" someone intentionally fighting unarmed (for style reason) to get only a Longsword, while if he had to choose fighting armed with a bastard sword (for style reason), he'd get a better benefit from one feat.

*presumably under the assumption that you don't have any weapon related special abilities, like Weapon Focus or several fighter powers that cease working with unarmed strikes? Should this matter? How much does it matter?