Uncanny Dodge and the Dodge bonus - Yes or No?

[Enkhidu]

Over in ashockney's "I hate math" thread, Ourph made the following statement in defense of an example he made:

...Uncanny dodge only returns your Dex bonus to you, it does not allow you to keep all of your dodge bonuses. The condition that made you lose your dodge bonuses still exists, Uncanny Dodge just allows you to avoid losing ONE of those bonuses...

Did I miss something from the sage? Because as I read it you lose dodge bonuses in any situation in which you are actually denied your Dex bonus, and Uncanny Dodge makes it so you pretty much can't lose your Dex bonus.

So, what's the collective rules forum verdict?

 

[Ourph]

Did I miss something from the sage? Because as I read it you lose dodge bonuses in any situation in which you are actually denied your Dex bonus, and Uncanny Dodge makes it so you pretty much can't lose your Dex bonus.

So, what's the collective rules forum verdict?

Here are the relevant entries from the 3.5 Player's Handbook (FWIW I believe they're essentially unchanged from 3.0)

Uncanny Dodge: He retains his Dex bonus to AC (if any) even if he is struck while flat-footed or by an invisible attacker.

Mobility: A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses.

Note that the Uncanny Dodge ability specifically says "if he is struck while flat-footed. Uncanny Dodge doesn't eliminate the condition that caused you to lose your Dex bonus to AC, it merely allows you to keep your Dodge bonus to AC in spite of it.

Therefore, the condition that denies you your other dodge bonuses still exists and causes all but the one based on your Dex modifier to go away. Uncanny Dodge only addresses the character's Dex bonus, if it also applies to other dodge bonuses it should say "he retains his Dex bonus to AC (if any) and any other dodge bonuses to AC (if any) even if he is struck while flat-footed or by an invisible opponent.

Along the same lines, a character with Uncanny Dodge also still suffers all the other conditions associated with being flat-footed or any other conditions that would normally make him lose a Dex bonus to AC (i.e. cannot make attacks of opportunity unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat, does not threaten an area, etc.)

At least, that was always my take (and my ruling while running) on the subject. It's possible that Skip has overruled my interpretation of the rules (it wouldn't be the first time) but I wouldn't know, since my collection of Dragon stops ~issue 215.

 

[Caliban]

Here are the relevant entries from the 3.5 Player's Handbook (FWIW I believe they're essentially unchanged from 3.0)

Uncanny Dodge: He retains his Dex bonus to AC (if any) even if he is struck while flat-footed or by an invisible attacker.

Mobility: A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses.

Note that the Uncanny Dodge ability specifically says "if he is struck while flat-footed. Uncanny Dodge doesn't eliminate the condition that caused you to lose your Dex bonus to AC, it merely allows you to keep your Dodge bonus to AC in spite of it.

Therefore, the condition that denies you your other dodge bonuses still exists and causes all but the one based on your Dex modifier to go away. Uncanny Dodge only addresses the character's Dex bonus, if it also applies to other dodge bonuses it should say "he retains his Dex bonus to AC (if any) and any other dodge bonuses to AC (if any) even if he is struck while flat-footed or by an invisible opponent.

Along the same lines, a character with Uncanny Dodge also still suffers all the other conditions associated with being flat-footed or any other conditions that would normally make him lose a Dex bonus to AC (i.e. cannot make attacks of opportunity unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat, does not threaten an area, etc.)

Yeah, but if you have Uncanny Dodge, it doesn't make you lose your Dex bonus to AC. Since you only lose your Dodge bonus when you lose your Dex bonus, not losing your Dex bonus means you get to keep your Dodge bonus.

 

[Ourph]

Since you only lose your Dodge bonus when you lose your Dex bonus, not losing your Dex bonus means you get to keep your Dodge bonus.

My interpretation differs. Obviously.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Mobility: A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses.

"Is 'flat-footed' a condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any)?"
"No. I'm a barbarian."
"Carry on, then."

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

My interpretation differs. Obviously.

Yeah, but mine's right. Obviously.

 

[Ourph]

"Is 'flat-footed' a condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any)?"
"No. I'm a barbarian."
"Carry on, then."

To be clear, the example in question had the rogue with uncanny dodge facing an invisible opponent he was unaware of.

I find it very strange that the rules would call for a character to get his Mobility AC bonus and his Fighting Defensively AC bonus vs. an opponent he cannot see and isn't aware of. Therefore, I interpret the rules differently.

Yeah, but mine's right. Obviously.

It depends on how you read the rules. Is facing an invisible opponent a condition that makes you lose your Dex bonus to AC? Yes. Does Uncanny Dodge let you retain your Dex bonus to AC despite this condition? Yes. Does Uncanny Dodge allow you to retain your other dodge bonuses to AC? That's open to interpretation.

I'm not actually sure what the official answer is (and for the record, I don't care since I no longer run d20 anything and I know what my DM's ruling for my 3.5 game is on the subject).

In fact, it was rules questions like this that convinced me to hang up my 3e DMing hat for good and return to my roots.

 

[Caliban]

It depends on how you read the rules. Is facing an invisible opponent a condition that makes you lose your Dex bonus to AC? Yes. Does Uncanny Dodge let you retain your Dex bonus to AC despite this condition? Yes. Does Uncanny Dodge allow you to retain your other dodge bonuses to AC? That's open to interpretation.

Not really.

You lose your Dodge bonus to AC when you lose your Dex bonus AC.

Did the condition actually make you lose your Dex bonus? No, it did not.

Does this mean you keep your Dodge bonus? Yes.

 

[Ourph]

Did the condition actually make you lose your Dex bonus? No, it did not.

Fact.

Does this mean you keep your Dodge bonus? Yes.

Opinion.

If Uncanny Dodge specifically said "you retain your Dex bonus to AC (if any) and any other Dodge bonuses to AC (if any)" there would be no need for interpretation, but it doesn't.

IMO, if an ability does not specifically state the character receives a benefit, s/he doesn't.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

To be clear, the example in question had the rogue with uncanny dodge facing an invisible opponent he was unaware of.

I find it very strange that the rules would call for a character to get his Mobility AC bonus and his Fighting Defensively AC bonus vs. an opponent he cannot see and isn't aware of. Therefore, I interpret the rules differently.

Yeah, it's almost uncanny the way rogues and barbarians can dodge blows from foes they're unaware of isn't it. Maybe that's why it's called UNCANNY dodge.

In fact, it was rules questions like this that convinced me to hang up my 3e DMing hat for good and return to my roots.

Like a good many so-called difficult rules questions in D&D 3.x, it's only difficult if you decide to make it so. If you decide that a rogue has the uncanny ability to dodge threats he's unaware of just as well as the threats he is aware of (somewhat like D'artagnan can parry foes behind him just as easily as foes in front of him in the barfight scene from Musketeer), then it's pretty easy to interpret most issues.