Uncanny Dodge/Feint Question

[FCWesel]

Had a buddy ask me a question and i thought I would get your opinions on the matter.

"How does Uncanny Dodge work against a feint in combat? If character A bluffs character B, but B has Uncanny Dodge, is the bluff negated? Is it useless to even attempt such a bluff?"

It would seem that you could not Feitn such a person, but that seems kinda arbitrary at the same time. Are there any other variables or errata or other rules I am forgetting off the top of my head?

 

[hong]

Uncanny dodge doesn't work against feinting.

 

[FCWesel]

Thanks for the reply, and not to be argumentative, but where does that say that *specifically*?

 

[KerlanRayne]

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

It state the only two situations that Uncanny Dodge applies to, being flat footed and invisible attackers. It doesn't work on anything else.

KerlanRayne

 

[FCWesel]

Keep in mind I am not necisarily disagreeing with you but to play devil's advocate now, because I know what question or comment I'll be asked:

What you quoted doesn't say "the only two times".

It says, "She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker."

That it says "even if" does not exclude its "negating feint" by its wording, if anything one might say it opens it up to include any "Dex denying" thing, even if flat footed. Also, the note of the invisible attacker not denying one's dex even would seem to indicate you can't feint someone with this ability.

 

[the Jester]

A climbing character loses his dex bonus while climbing. Does uncanny dodge help against this?

A sleeping character loses his dex bonus. Does uncanny dodge help against this?

A paralyzed character loses his dex bonus. Does uncanny dodge help against this?

Seriously. If none of the above questions are answered 'yes,' why would the following:

A character who is the victim of a feint in combat loses his dex bonus. Does uncanny dodge help against this?

Uncanny dodge specifies the conditions that it works against. If it doesn't specify it, it's a safe assumption that it doesn't cover it. I believe that the Sage has addressed this a couple times, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's in the FAQ as well. Hope this helps, and I hope the player in question accepts this line of reasoning!

 

[FCWesel]

Thanks for the replies guys. Yeah, my buddy is a new GM and he's got something of a problem player, and this came up, so I was trying to find a solid answer for him. There's nothing in the 3.5 FAQ that I could find, so I looked in the 3.0; sensibly the default FAQ I would think.

It had this to say:


**********

"The description of the barbarian’s uncanny dodge class feature says a barbarian retains his Dexterity bonus unless immobilized or held motionless due to magic. I understand this includes avoiding being caught flat-footed and sneak attacked unless the attacker has the barbarian flanked. What about other combat conditions that deny a character his Dexterity bonus, such as climbing, grappling, and the like?

The uncanny dodge ability is a function of the senses. It allows a character to retain his Dexterity bonus when others cannot because they don’t have sufficient sensory information to do so, such as when one is surprised or facing an unseen foe. If the character is actually rendered immobile (or nearly
immobile) by some physical or magical effect, uncanny dodge doesn’t help. If you’re a barbarian hanging by your fingers and toes on a rock face, your feral senses don’t improve your mobility. You can’t use your Dexterity bonus, and you’re subject to sneak attack. Grappling is a similar situation—if you’re in another creature’s grasp (or if you’re gasping another creature), you lose your Dexterity bonus despite any uncanny dodge ability you might have.

Creatures with the improved grab special attack can retain their Dexterity bonuses while grappling by taking a –20 penalty on any grapple checks they make. There’s no reason why a character couldn’t take that penalty and also retain his Dexterity bonus while grappling."

**********

So. According to that, as long as his "feral senses" come to play, Uncanny Dodge works. So climibing or paralyzed characters would not get the Bonus, but obviously a sleeping character would not...as long as they were actually asleep because in a sense they are held immobile by thier own sleeping conciousness. The moment they are aware of the attack, they do.

However a Feint does not physically limit the barbarian, instead it would play directly against his "Feral Senses". UD doesn't improve your mobility as much as it makes you especially aware. If one is especially aware, a "fake out" would play against THAT so the UD would help against Feint.

The fact that Improved UD works against Flank attacks also supports this. Flanks get thier bonus because your attention is on more then one foe directly opposite you. You are more wary and have better senses, thus you are immune to the situation. (Save the rouge 4 levels higher thing.)


Now you could say that in the Feint situation, the character is being given false information and thus can't react and thus cannot use UD against Feint. However, false info is not the "excuse". You can fight someone you can't even see, such as an invisible attacker, and still retain your DEX, afterall. Also the flanking thing gones on "busy-ness and false info basically". BUT that brings us to Imrpoved UD, you can be Flanked with UD.


So, if you can be flanked with UD, it would be safe to argue that you can be subject to a Feint, as Feint is basically a "one person flank" in a sense. And since Improved UD is so specific in regards to "flanking" it seems that the strongest arguement is that you can be Feinted even with IUD.

Obviously a Barbarian or rouge w/ UD/IUD should be allowed to add thier BAB with the Sense Motive check.

Thoughts or ideas?

 

[Egres]

This is the Sage reply to a Hyp mail:

Both the feint description in the PH and Rules of Games make it pretty clear that uncanny dodge does not protect you from feints. (The Bluff skill tells you what feints do, Rules of the Game tells you what uncanny dodge does). I'm pretty sure the FAQ did deal with the matter, too, though I expect you'd have to look at the old FAQ because it's an old question.

It's not impossible to go back and change Rules of the Game to make this explicit, but I;m not inclinded to ask the web team to go through that much work.