Uncanny Dodge - Flatfooted vs. Denied Dex to AC

[SlagMortar]

By the structure of the sentence there are two conditions where dexterity bonus is retained and one condition where it is explicitly not retained.
1. Retained when flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker
2. Lost when immobilized.

If it were worded or punctuated differantly it might be interperted otherwise.

This is not true. "I have to work, even if I don't need any money at the moment." That sentence does not mean that I only have to work when I don't need money at the moment.

The rule is silent on a whole host of conditions, which have already been mentioned in the thread. I think the best way to rule it is to compare the other conditions to those explicity stated. I allow it to work when blinded, but not in the other conditions mentioned in the thread.

 

[borc killer]

grammatically speaking the even if, is a dependant clause and therefor the only situations you would retain the bonus would be those specified.

Yep. That is how we use it in our game, I honestly don’t see how you can interpreted it any other way without changing the text.

The rogue basically has to flank the barbarian or no sneak attack. However, we do count blind as invisible… but that is a house rule. Now as for being ‘to good’ we have never found it to be over powered in any way… but when the barbarian gets improved uncanny dodge and the rogue has to immobilize him somehow then it is getting to be ‘powerful’ but still not that bad.

I could see this being an issue if it came up A LOT in your game… but on average this should not really come into play THAT much.

 

[ainbimagh]

This is not true. "I have to work, even if I don't need any money at the moment."

Did I state that was the way to punctuate it? Are you even using a sentance that is comparable?

No and no. Dont try to bring a completely differant situation into this one to create some kind of semantical argument, use the exact sentance. There's more to it than that.

At 2nd level, a barbarian retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a barbarian already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

Also by stating that it applies to any other situation, you might as well be sayint that NO ONE retains their dexterity bonus in any situation unless they have uncanny dodge.

No one has a feat that says 'At X level, a [insert class here] retains his dexterity bonus to AC.' Because it is assumed that you retain your dexterity bonus unless a situation arises where you lose it.

Now why is this worded this way? This is clarifying that a barbarian retains their dexterity bonus even IF these two specified situations come up.

 

[SlagMortar]

Thank you for breaking your argument down further. I have to say that makes sense.

Edit: By the way, your argument works for my example as well, assuming there is an underlying rule about me working such as, "I have to work when I need money."
Then the sentence, "I have to work even when I don't need money at the moment" adds exactly one condition to when I need to work. Thanks again for clarifying.

 

[Bad Paper]

Is there any way to deny a character with Uncanny Dodge their dexterity bonus so that you can land a Sneak Attack or Sudden Strike?

flanky flanky

 

[MongooseFamiliar]

The main reason for *my* confusion is that I often see "flat-footed" used interchangably with "denied dexterity bonus."

For example, the Acrobatic Backstab trick from the Complete Scoundrel reads: "Move through foe's space to render it flat-footed."

"Flat-footed" as defined in the PHB refers specifically to characters losing their dexterity bonus <b>at the beginning of a battle.</b>

Would you rule that Uncanny Dodge negates the Acrobatic Backstab trick or no?

 

[Jeff Wilder]

I would. Uncanny Dodge makes the character immune to being flat-footed. If a circumstance makes someone flat-footed, that circumstance doesn't work on someone with Uncanny Dodge.

If the same circumstance uses different wording -- "denies the target its Dex bonus to AC" -- then it works whether the target has Uncanny Dodge or not.

I figure that's why writers make the distinction. (Of course, it's very plausible that writers just aren't making the distinction, but I'm charitable.)

 

[Sejs]

Would you rule that Uncanny Dodge negates the Acrobatic Backstab trick or no?

Gut feeling here, but yeah, I'd let Uncanny Dodge negate Acrobatic Backstab.

 

[Sound of Azure]

Yeah, I reckon Uncanny Dodge would negate the Acrobatic Backstab, due to the language involved.

 

[frankthedm]

I run it as UD lets one keep their dex bonus unless they do something to give it up: Climb, Run*, Balance or become helpless. I let them keep UD while blind too.