Uncanny Dodge - Flatfooted vs. Denied Dex to AC

[MongooseFamiliar]

Is there any way to deny a character with Uncanny Dodge their dexterity bonus so that you can land a Sneak Attack or Sudden Strike?

I figure if there is a way past it, somebody here has come up with it at some point. If there isn't a way past it, how would you suggest a stealthy-infiltrator type handle, say, a barbarian who has it?

 

[argo]

Well, I for one take a narrow reading of the uncanny dodge ability.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex)
At 2nd level, a barbarian retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a barbarian already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

Now, the way I read that sentence it is an exhaustive list of the conditions where you retain your Dex bonus. IOW Uncanny Dodge protects you against being flat-footed at the start of combat (for losing initative) and from invisible attackers.

So a guy with uncanny dodge will still lose his dex bonus if feinted, running, climbing, grappling, etc...

I know that some people read it that Uncanny Dodge means you don't ever lose your Dex bonus for any reason at all. Personally I think that makes the ability too powerful.

Just my 2cp.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

We play that uncanny dodge only works in the stated circumstances - which happen to occur the most frequently anyway.

So we play that it means jack when climbing, grappling (vs outside attacks), etc...

Btw, I don't think running loses the dex anymore?

 

[MongooseFamiliar]

I have heard the "never lose AC bonus" explanation as well, which is why I thought I'd ask. So, if the opponent was blinded and then attacked, would he keep the dex AC bonus or not? Meaning, I guess, does the attacker count as invisible if the defender with uncanny dodge is blinded?

Does anyone else interpret the uncanny dodge AC bonus thing differently? If so, I would like to hear your reasoning in the interest of completeness.

 

[Sound of Azure]

We play that uncanny dodge only works in the stated circumstances - which happen to occur the most frequently anyway.

So we play that it means jack when climbing, grappling (vs outside attacks), etc...

Btw, I don't think running loses the dex anymore?

You do unless you take the Run feat.

I agree, with the rest, though. Unless you have a class ability that lets you keep your Dex bonus in those situations (such as 5 ranks in Balance, for balancing stuations, of Thief-Acrobat levels for climbing, etc), you are vulnerable to sneak attack it other situations. Uncanny dodge would be far too powerful otherwise.

--

Meaning, I guess, does the attacker count as invisible if the defender with uncanny dodge is blinded?

If you have a look at the Blinded condition...

Blinded:Unable to see. A blinded character takes a -2 penalty to Armour Class, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) , ....

All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) relative to the blinded character.

So, they lose their Dexterity bonus to AC in a condition that isn't negated by Uncanny Dodge, and all opponents are treated as if they had 50% concealment... a condition identical to (but is not in actuality) invisibility.

 

[Sejs]

Putting aside the old Define "Even if" argument that mucks up most Uncanny Dodge discussions, and assuming that we're using a definition that reads as only including being caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker.

Ways to lose your dex mod:

Being grappled (no dex versus anyone other than your fellow grapplers).
Being blind.
Cowering.
Being successfully feinted in combat.
Being helpless (...but that kind of goes without saying, heh).
Being paralyzed (likewise goes without saying).
Being stunned.
Running (assuming no Run feat).
Climbing.
Balancing (that is: using the balance skill) if the person has less than 5 ranks in the skill. May be a gray area due to wording on the skill.

 

[catsclaw227]

I am not saying that I agree with the ruling, and if it is so, then Uncanny Dodge would be too powerfull, but.....

In technical writing or in prose, when you state a condition, followed by a comma, and then "even if"... the examples stated are meant to include those situations where there would be argument against the condition existing by providing emphasis to avoid creating loopholes.

I don't know how the use of "condition x, even if a, b, c" works in contract law, but it would be interesting to find out.

Either way, I would reluctantly have to agree that it means any and all situations, even those most commons circumstances one loses their Dex such as "caught flat-footed" and "struck by an invisible attacker".

I don't want to get into a RAW vs. FAQ argument on this, but we know what RAW says, what does FAQ say?

 

[Darklone]

The only thing here on the list I don't agree with is being blinded. It may not be written correctly, but it's too similar to fighting invisible ones that I'd make a difference.

Otherwise:
How often does it come up that someone with sneak attack knows he's going to attack a barbarian? In my games usually not. Sneakers don't know in advance whether their opponent has Uncanny Dodge (or some other protection).

Assuming he knows:
Stunning/Grappling can be achieved rather easily. Color Spray for example.

 

[mikebr99]

A successful Bluff will also work against someone with Uncanny Dodge... but Sejs mentioned that...

Mike

 

[ainbimagh]

grammatically speaking the even if, is a dependant clause and therefor the only situations you would retain the bonus would be those specified.

If it were worded or punctuated differantly it might be interperted otherwise.