Uncanny Dodge vs Feint conundrum...

[Alstott_the_Light]

Although I like some of the opposing ideas on this one,

A feinted rogue is just as bad off as a feinted fighter, wizard, cleric, or etc.

and nobody can tell you the right or wrong way to interpret the rules of D&D

I'm thinking that if a feint is going to mislead you into losing your dex - then that is what Uncanny dodge is suppose to prevent, i.e. being caught of gaurd from an invisible attacker - you didn't know it was coming, but you dodged it anyways

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Heh, just another reason for me to stay with the 3E version of it, where it says:

At 3rd level and above, she retains her Dex bonus to AC (if any) regardless of being caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. (She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.)

I think the wording is a little clearer in this one.

 

[shilsen]

One more for Feint beating UD.

 

[reanjr]

This is based on the fact the "even if" clause is generally read as being illustrative but not exhaustive. Thus, "You always keep your Dex bonus to AC (and here are the most common ways in which that occurs)."

I don't like that rule, however, and it is therefore changed whenever I DM. A feinted rogue is just as bad off as a feinted fighter, wizard, cleric, or etc.

I disagree with the assessment of "even if".

You only got a 65% on the test.
I pass even if I get a 60%, so I'm not worried.

By your assessment, you would pass the test no mater the score. That's not the case. An "even if" (with no other indication to the contrary) clause generally means you are giving the lower bounds of a successful test. Anything else below the lower bounds, and the test fails. Anything above the lower bounds and the test succeeds.

In my opinion, being flat-footed or attacked by an invisible foe are general cases and more likely to fail against Uncanny Dodge than a specific case (feint) that works at cross purposes. My reading of the rules suggests that Feint would be successful against Uncanny Dodge.

Unless the phrase "even if" has special non-normative meaning in D20 books, at least...

 

[apesamongus]

There are those that argue that the fact that the phrase 'even when' in the description means that you always keep your dex bonus to AC, no matter what. In my opinion, this is a pretty loose interpetation- I suspect many of the people arguing that position play rogues.

While I agree with your general answer, I don't think the problem comes from the words "even when", but instead from the next clause that specifically excludes being immobilized and says you do loose your dex bonus then. That is a totally needless addition that does nothing but confuse the situation. If the first list is exhaustive, then that would be automatically excluded by simply not being listed on the first part, so by including that second part, it implies that the first section is not exhaustive. Instead what we end up with is two incomplete lists.

Poor, poor writing.

 

[Darkness]

There are those that argue that the fact that the phrase 'even when' in the description means that you always keep your dex bonus to AC, no matter what. In my opinion, this is a pretty loose interpetation- I suspect many of the people arguing that position play rogues.

I think barbarian players are more likely to argue that than rogue players, given that this (IMO wrong) interpretation can hurt some rogues (e.g., those who feint to get sneak attacks) while it generally won't hurt a barbarian. Barbarians also get the ability earlier.

 

[mikebr99]

i.e. being caught of gaurd from an invisible attacker - you didn't know it was coming, but you dodged it anyways

It's almost... Uncanny!

Sorry... had to be done.

Mike

 

[Egres]

This is Skip's reply to a mail sent by Hyp about this issue:

Both the feint description in the PH and Rules of Games make it pretty clear that uncanny dodge does not protect you from feints. (The Bluff skill tells you what feints do, Rules of the Game tells you what uncanny dodge does). I'm pretty sure the FAQ did deal with the matter, too, though I expect you'd have to look at the old FAQ because it's an old question.

It's not impossible to go back and change Rules of the Game to make this explicit, but I;m not inclinded to ask the web team to go through that much work.

 

[KarinsDad]

I suspect that if they had meant ALL situations which require that you lose your Dex bonus to AC, they would have said all.

They didn't.

The "even if" phrase is a figure of speech and not explicit.

Feint (and ANY other situation that causes you to lose your Dex bonus to AC with the exception of invisible opponent or flat-footed) trumps Uncanny Dodge.

 

[fett527]

I say Fient trumps UD, but I haven't seen anyone use Feint since october of 2000 so it really hasn't mattered

How about knowing someone who has. I have used it to great effect when isolated one-on-one in combat. It's more effective as a rogue to feint and get one attack with sneak attack damage than two or three without (depending on level of course).