D&D (2024) Uncommon items - actually common?

[pemerton]

In that case what we have is a gamist compromise, one you occasionally have to make.

That "compromise" (as you label it) seems to refute your claim that "it makes no sense to me" that "The world in-universe is unaware of the rules used to construct the PCs."

I put "compromise" in scare quotes because it's not actually a compromise. To describe it as a compromise is like saying that it's a compromise that the characters who figure in the film Star Wars are the ones doing the exciting stuff rather than (say) a mid-level Death Star operative who sits at a console making sure the nuclear reactors powering the thing remain stable; or (in Andy Warhol's remake) the same operative sleeping in his barracks for 8 hours after finishing a shift.

All fiction is authored. And hence all the elements in a fiction are there because an author chose to put them there, or because they are implied in some fashion by an author's choice (eg the presence of the Death Star implies the existence of engineers, even though we are never expressly told about them). But unless the fiction is a fourth-wall breaker (Blazing Saddles is the film example that comes to mind) then that crucial fact about the authorship of the fiction will not be something that is know by the imaginary people in the imaginary world of the fiction.

RPGs sharing this property is not a compromise. It's an essential feature of any non-absurdist RPging.

 

[Oofta]

When it comes to magic items, another thing to consider is that most magic items are pretty hard to destroy. Throw a magic sword into the ocean and a hundred years later it's still just as bright and shiny as the day it was forged.

As far as magic items from times long ago, that to me is where you get into artifacts, legendary or even very rare items.

 

[Micah Sweet]

OK. This has zero implications for the rules of a RPG.

Just to pick one example: in most versions of D&D, PCs have a type of "staying power" that many NPCs lack (ie their hit points, saving throws etc).

The reason for this in the fiction, as Gygax told us, is luck and/or supernatural/divine blessing.

So the differences in the fiction - between those who don't die when shot at by a dozen guards with crossbows, and those who do - is explained by a factor that is part of the fiction - namely, luck and/or supernatural/divine blessing.

The fact that this in-fiction difference reflects a game-play conceit (ie that players are able to declare bold moves for their playing pieces) doesn't change the fact that there is an in-fiction explanation.

And the point generalises across all the other rules that you personally do not care for.

Can you provide me with any other example that isn't basically about hit points? Again?

 

[Xeviat]

It sure does. Not sure that's something WotC wants to encourage anymore. How does that help the PCs, after all?

I once took the 3E magic item creation rules, the GP limit by settlement rules, and the 3E spells to make a bunch of magic items that would revolutionize the world. A magic water pump could be made with Create Water for 1,000 gp, and it would spout two gallons of water every time someone pumped it (once every 6 seconds). It doesn't take that big of a town to pool together and get one (just make sure it's real heavy so it's hard to steal).

 

[Minigiant]

I understand the premise. I am disputing the could.

Our real world is chock-full of nuclear warheads. It doesn't follow that the ultra-rich can purchase them. And we live in the most market-oriented, commercial society that has ever existed in the whole of human history.

It is quite possible to imagine explanations, consistent with examples found in the actual history of human societies, for why there is no market for magical goods and services despite the presence of (some) mages and even (say) magic colleges in the setting.

This issue is wizards aren't considered nuclear warheads in D&D.

Nor are magic items.

Even the evil humaniods had magic items and/or magic hirelings if they were powerful enough

If the orc warlord could get a mage, it strains belief that the Duke of an organized medieval system of government couldn't get access to one

And if you as the DM bury the PCs in treasure so their wealth matches mobility, confinement of access becomes harder to justify.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I once took the 3E magic item creation rules, the GP limit by settlement rules, and the 3E spells to make a bunch of magic items that would revolutionize the world. A magic water pump could be made with Create Water for 1,000 gp, and it would spout two gallons of water every time someone pumped it (once every 6 seconds). It doesn't take that big of a town to pool together and get one (just make sure it's real heavy so it's hard to steal).

And that is truly awesome.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

For me, it's about access and control.

1. First of all, is it something a person can even afford? How much money does a commoner really have after paying for their food and shelter? Will they spend their life savings on anything that does not make their lives easier?
2. Second, is it a dangerous and controlled item? Does it blast people and set fires? Or does it just help you jump and swim better?

In my world, 1g is roughly equivalent to $100. Therefore...

• A riding horse for 75g is effectively $7,500. Not everyone owns a riding horse.
• A Common magic item worth 50g equals $5,000. Is there a non-dangerous magic item that a commoner is willing to spend that much money on? Would they rather save for a horse or have a common magic item?
• An Uncommon magic item worth 400g is equivalent to $40,000. This is the big list of what people in the world might have, but it would still be uncommon. An Uncommon broom of flying is effectively buying a slow, flying bicycle. A bag of holding is also Uncommon. You can have 5 horses and 25g left over for this amount. Which would a commoner rather have?
• A Rare magic item worth 4,000g is equivalent to $400,000. That is a LOT of value. But just because it exists, it doesn't mean that it is easy to sell/offload. This is a level that is suited to bartering (like for other magic items).

What kind of people have the money to buy or create these items? Successful adventurers who put their lives on the line to fight slaadi and vampires and beholders, get access to monies and gear that warrants their ability to acquire such items. But a merchant? Maybe a bag of holding if they are very prosperous, but a broom of flying that can't carry a lot of gear? How useful is it to their survival or career?

 

[Kurotowa]

The assumption you describe makes me think not just pulp, but The Dying Earth.

The Dying Earth especially, yes, but it was a theme through a lot of early to mid 20th century genre fiction. Where do they get their magic armor and swords in The Hobbit? They loot a bunch of ancient elvish gear. Where does the dank magic crawl out from in Conan stories? Ancient tombs and ruins of lost civilizations. It all comes from digging up the past, none of it is ever fresh from the forges.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Can you provide me with any other example that isn't basically about hit points? Again?

Leveling. Butchers don't get super swole for killing a bunch of cows that are definitely more powerful than them, nor do big game hunters level off shooting the most badass animals in the world.

So the backbone of the game is based entirely in the meta and ignores any in-universe implications of what would happen if it were a rule of physics in-universe.

 

[pemerton]

This issue is wizards aren't considered nuclear warheads in D&D.

Nor are magic items.

It's an example, to show that even in the most commercialised and marketised human society so far, not everything is available for purchase.

There can be many other reasons, consistent with actual examples from human history, why something is not marketised.

Even the evil humaniods had magic items and/or magic hirelings if they were powerful enough

If the orc warlord could get a mage, it strains belief that the Duke of an organized medieval system of government couldn't get access to one

Traditionally, there are mages in D&D societies - look at the City/Town encounter table in Gygax's DMG, or the character rosters for bandits and the like in the "Men" entry in the original MM.

It doesn't follow that these NPCs can, or do, make magic items. Or will do whatever they are told. What are the limitations? The taboos? The guild requirements?

It's not that hard to come up with explanations that will provide the necessary fig leaf.