D&D (2024) Uncommon items - actually common?

[Vaalingrade]

Okay, so define 'logic' and 'verisimilitude'.

The game is a game and necessarily has an in-universe side and a meta side. Unless the characters are aware that all of their choices are controlled by extra dimensional beings, one has to accept that at the very least.

And to even operate the game, you're going to have to use mechanics that make no-sense for anyone in-universe to be aware of, so what 'logic' or 'verisimilitude' are we breaking by using different rules for different entities that serve different purposes and are being controlled by different people on the meta side aside from the chief meaning of 'verisimilitude' in D&D discussions -- 'I don't like it'.

 

[Micah Sweet]

thinking like this gets me into world building... "how much does it cost to ship items, how much less if you put it on a person with a bag of holding? How much less if you can reliably find star gate... I mean teleport circles?"

I find that sort of thing very interesting. Unfortunately, 5.5 specifically states that the rules are only for PCs and their heroic derring-do.

 

[Deset Gled]

I'm sure there are plenty of price lists out there if you care. Are they "official"? No. Does it matter? It's not like people stop complaining about stuff just because it's in a book published by WotC.

I don't understand.

Did you possibly quote the wrong post?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Okay, so define 'logic' and 'verisimilitude'.

The game is a game and necessarily has an in-universe side and a meta side. Unless the characters are aware that all of their choices are controlled by extra dimensional beings, one has to accept that at the very least.

And to even operate the game, you're going to have to use mechanics that make no-sense for anyone in-universe to be aware of, so what 'logic' or 'verisimilitude' are we breaking by using different rules for different entities that serve different purposes and are being controlled by different people on the meta side aside from the chief meaning of 'verisimilitude' in D&D discussions -- 'I don't like it'.

Because the different purposes you are talking about are narrative purposes, not in-setting purposes. A dwarf warrior NPC is not a different sort of creature in-universe from a dwarf fighter PC, but they are different narratively. I have no interest in judging them differently in the narrative in any mechanical way. Narrative mechanics are not fun for me. I can't explain it any better than that.

Others of course feel differently, and that's great.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Because the different purposes you are talking about are narrative purposes, not in-setting purposes. A dwarf warrior NPC is not a different sort of creature in-universe from a dwarf fighter PC, but they are different narratively. I have no interest in judging them differently in the narrative in any mechanical way. Narrative mechanics are not fun for me. I can't explain it any better than that.

Others of course feel differently, and that's great.

This says to define what you think 'logic' or 'verisimilitude' are beyond the 'I don't like it' aspect.

'I don't like narrative approaches to storytelling' says nothing about the point you're arguing from.

 

[Kurotowa]

Effectively, Eberron is the only setting to explicitly name and stat out "magewrights", that is, "blue collar working magicians crafting magic goods or selling magic services", but the default D&D setting implies their presence in the background. Maybe in smaller numbers than in eberron, but if common items are assumed to be available in every town, implicitly there's probably at least one guy in town or the next town over making them (in the same way that your average contemporary small town probably has an auto mechanic or one nearby), or there's some kind of industrialized center of magic item creation and an established distribution network (which is also kind of written into the lore of FR, with 4th edition's red wizard enclaves who were basically magic item factories).

I've commented before about how most D&D settings assume some variety of post-post-apocalyptic scenario. That's the standard justification for why adventurers can pull magical relics out of dungeons and ruins that seem to be more powerful than anything being currently crafted and offered on the market. There was a high magic civilization in the past, for some reason it isn't around anymore, but you can dig up its leavings and that's more worthwhile than making anything new.

That might be changing. We're well past the pulp era's "cyclical history and fallen civilizations" fixation. That sort of thing smacks of attitudes a lot of people are actively trying to cast off, and they don't seem to carry a lot of weight with the younger generations. Instead, they've grown up with a plethora of small technological conveniences and the march of progress, both technical and social. So it should be no surprise that they're moving towards stories that reflect that.

Blue collar magicians supplying small magical conveniences fits with that. So do cosmopolitan urban centers with diverse demographic populations. It's a new sort of fantasy for a new era.

 

[Micah Sweet]

This says to define what you think 'logic' or 'verisimilitude' are beyond the 'I don't like it' aspect.

'I don't like narrative approaches to storytelling' says nothing about the point you're arguing from.

Setting logic means that every aspect of the setting happens in a way that could logically occur in the imaginary world of that setting, based on whatever logic that setting uses.

Verisimilitude means that consistency is maintained between different instances of the same thing, so that they don't change based on any factor that isn'tpart of the setting. The classic example in a fantasy world is magic. If two people generate the same magical effect using the same system, and everything in the setting that is relevant to that effect is the same, than the effect will be the same no matter what factors outside the imaginary world may exist (like the narrative toles if the individuals involved).

Since my preference means I have no interest in narrative approaches to D&D-style gaming, I do everything I can to minimize said approaches' effects on events in accordance to the above definitions.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Setting logic means that every aspect of the setting happens in a way that could logically occur in the imaginary world of that setting, based on whatever logic that setting uses.

Okay, so character rules and creation exists in the meta, where the setting never interacts with it.

No logical issues the.

Verisimilitude means that consistency is maintained between different instances of the same thing, so that they don't change based on any factor that isn'tpart of the setting. The classic example in a fantasy world is magic. If two people generate the same magical effect using the same system, and everything in the setting that is relevant to that effect is the same, than the effect will be the same no matter what factors outside the imaginary world may exist (like the narrative toles if the individuals involved).

Good news! The PCs aren't generating the same effects.

No verisimilitude issues based on this highly anomalous and very tailored definition of verisimilitude.

Since my preference means I have no interest in narrative approaches to D&D-style gaming, I do everything I can to minimize said approaches' effects on events in accordance to the above definitions.

As you are so very fond of telling others: your preference is your preference. It isn't logic or verisimilitude.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Okay, so character rules and creation exists in the meta, where the setting never interacts with it.

No logical issues the.


Good news! The PCs aren't generating the same effects.

No verisimilitude issues based on this highly anomalous and very tailored definition of verisimilitude.


As you are so very fond of telling others: your preference is your preference. It isn't logic or verisimilitude.

You are obviously welcome to disagree with me. You asked for definitions. I gave them.

Can we move on?

 

[Vaalingrade]

Can we move on?

D&D has been defined by being disallowed from moving on.