D&D (2024) Uncommon items - actually common?

How many people have regular access to that world? Also, in some versions the good stuff over there is hard to find and/or heavily guarded.
A first level wizard can just rip the population of that world out of it and into ours. There are canonical open portals are aren't guarded at all.

And the 'good stuff' on the elemental earth realm aren't common gems. They're common enough that, as Max person said, entire populations of creatures have evolved to eat them.
 

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A first level wizard can just rip the population of that world out of it and into ours. There are canonical open portals are aren't guarded at all.

And the 'good stuff' on the elemental earth realm aren't common gems. They're common enough that, as Max person said, entire populations of creatures have evolved to eat them.
What spell is a first level wizard using to do that?
 

That is plausible, if you assume that all gem cutting is less about "sparkly" and more about "purity". If a gem cutter is doing the equivalent of removing non-gem mass (quartz, granite, other impurities) that corrupt the stone and make it less useful for magic (think "negative value" material), then it works.

Because those impurities would have the same "negative value" when in dust as much as a whole stone.

To my limited understanding of gemology, your assumption that gem cutting is mostly about mechanical removal of inclusions isn't true in the real world. While one could, of course, design a fantasy setting where your assumption is true, it seems overkill to do so just to allow gemstones' cut and crushed values to be equal.

IRL, there are a lot of things we crush to dust first so we can refine out the impurities and then fuse the pure stuff together at the end. That's actually how manufactured gems work. Get pure materials then combine in a heated pressure chamber. It's almost like magic.
I am not aware of any synthetic gem production technology that uses purified natural gemstone as its source material. Although there could be one that I'm not aware of, I'd be surprised if one exists, because the materials in gemstones are extremely common, so I'd expect it's always going to be less expensive to get pure inputs from other sources. In particular, rubies (and sapphires) are corundum, a crystalline form of aluminum oxide, and getting pure aluminum oxide from ordinary bauxite is comparatively straightforward.

That's not the same as cheap or easy, but I'd be shocked if there's a method for purifying naturally occuring corundum that is cheaper or easier. And since synthetic gem production involves growing a new crystal, the fact that naturally occurring conundum is already in the desired crystalline form doesn't provide any advantages I can think of.
 

This is an off-shoot of the "bespoke items" thread.

I've been thinking a lot about the "meaning" of uncommon. The crafting rules in 5.5 are pretty generous, and uncommon items are pretty accessible.
I can walk into any village and buy a dagger. I can walk into most settlements and by a long bow. I cannot walk into most settlements and they will have either a +1 dagger or a +1 longbow available. Uncommon magical items are not common.
 

Yeah... It's not like we demand extraordinary things from the game, just "a handful of ruby dust, usually worth 50 gp".
I mean I think that's what most people already assumes it means.
Agreed.

Also:

In Unearthed Arcana, the material component for Forcecage is states thus (p 62):

Although the actual casting of . . . the spell requires no material component, the study of the spell required to commit it to memory does demand that the magic-user powder a diamond of at least 1,000 gp value . . .​

This seems to be the origin of the current component of "ruby dust worth 1,500 gp" (https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/2618916-forcecage).

Which is consistent with what @Maxperson and I have suggested: the game is not encouraging the GM to track the value of gem dust as an industrial byproduct; but rather is looking at the value of gem dust as flowing from the value of the gem that is powdered to create it.
 

Which is consistent with what @Maxperson and I have suggested: the game is not encouraging the GM to track the value of gem dust as an industrial byproduct; but rather is looking at the value of gem dust as flowing from the value of the gem that is powdered to create it.

We are not in disagreement that it's a way to do it (and I'd prefer to think it as a sacrifice than an amount of matter as well, but I like my magic weird) But then, all gems must have the same value, not exponential value as they get bigger/better cut/or even just famous.

Imagine the case. You have a regular-sized ruby generating ruby dust in sufficent quanitty to cast the spell. That's OK, so one day you have a regular ruby worth 5,000 dollars, and you powder it to propel the spell and it works. Great. However, instead of doing that, you just sell it and this exact same ruby is used to adorn the left nipplering worn by Kim Kardashian. I am pretty sure the same ruby would be worth several times the price of the former ruby, despite being exactly the same -- let's assume it is twice the price, as I am unsure what the actual markup would be, for the purpose of the discussion. So you buy it back for 10,000 dollars, and suddenly the same ruby can power TWO castings of the spell, one from its rubiosity and a second time from its kardashianness. That's OK for some worlds, but not those with a more "scientific" approach to spellcasting, which tend to be more common, IMHO, as the default assumption for D&D.

<sillyness mode>
And then, an enterprising character notice this, retires from adventuring and since the nipple-ring is destroyed when used for spellcasting and can't increase the supply, driving down the price, hires Kim Kardashian to wear ruby nipple-ring so they can get this increased market value and be used for more spellcasting than there are actual rubies available, buying cheap rubies and reselling kardashian-activated ruby dust to other spellcasters, making huge amount of money in the process.
</sillyness mode>

Another reason I prefer to reason in sacrifice value rather than a market value is that I am pretty sure a sentient demon would deny the spell if you gamed it, by buying a 1gp diamond at 50gp from another party member so it becomes a 50gp diamond for the purpose of spellcasting. The demon would be seeing throughthe trick, while he would honor the Kardashian-powered spellcasting because you effectively end up poorer.
 
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We are not in disagreement that it's a way to do it (and I'd prefer to think it as a sacrifice than an amount of matter as well, but I like my magic weird) But then, all gems must have the same value, not exponential value as they get bigger/better cut/or even just famous.

Imagine the case. You have a regular-sized ruby generating ruby dust in sufficent quanitty to cast the spell. That's OK, so one day you have a regular ruby worth 5,000 dollars, and you powder it to propel the spell and it works. Great. However, instead of doing that, you just sell it and this exact same ruby is used to adorn the left nipplering worn by Kim Kardashian. I am pretty sure the same ruby would be worth several times the price of the former ruby, despite being exactly the same -- let's assume it is twice the price, as I am unsure what the actual markup would be, for the purpose of the discussion. So you buy it back for 10,000 dollars, and suddenly the same ruby can power TWO castings of the spell, one from its rubiosity and a second time from its kardashianness. That's OK for some worlds, but not those with a more "scientific" approach to spellcasting, which tend to be more common, IMHO, as the default assumption for D&D.

<sillyness mode>
And then, an enterprising character notice this, retires from adventuring and since the nipple-ring is destroyed when used for spellcasting and can't increase the supply, driving down the price, hires Kim Kardashian to wear ruby nipple-ring so they can get this increased market value and be used for more spellcasting than there are actual rubies available, buying cheap rubies and reselling kardashian-activated ruby dust to other spellcasters, making huge amount of money in the process.
</sillyness mode>

Another reason I prefer to reason in sacrifice value rather than a market value is that I am pretty sure a sentient demon would deny the spell if you gamed it, by buying a 1gp diamond at 50gp from another party member so it becomes a 50gp diamond for the purpose of spellcasting. The demon would be seeing throughthe trick, while he would honor the Kardashian-powered spellcasting because you effectively end up poorer.
You're conflating values there. With the ruby example, both rubies are identically valued. Say $5000 as a ruby. Then you'd find some, but not all people, willing to pay an additional say $5,000 for Kardiashian(not ruby) value, creating a total cost of $10000. The Kardashian value is different from the ruby value.

You won't get two castings if you powder the Kardashian ruby since it's only a $5000 ruby.
 

We are not in disagreement that it's a way to do it (and I'd prefer to think it as a sacrifice than an amount of matter as well, but I like my magic weird) But then, all gems must have the same value, not exponential value as they get bigger/better cut/or even just famous.

Imagine the case. You have a regular-sized ruby generating ruby dust in sufficent quanitty to cast the spell. That's OK, so one day you have a regular ruby worth 5,000 dollars, and you powder it to propel the spell and it works. Great. However, instead of doing that, you just sell it and this exact same ruby is used to adorn the left nipplering worn by Kim Kardashian. I am pretty sure the same ruby would be worth several times the price of the former ruby, despite being exactly the same -- let's assume it is twice the price, as I am unsure what the actual markup would be, for the purpose of the discussion. So you buy it back for 10,000 dollars, and suddenly the same ruby can power TWO castings of the spell, one from its rubiosity and a second time from its kardashianness. That's OK for some worlds, but not those with a more "scientific" approach to spellcasting, which tend to be more common, IMHO, as the default assumption for D&D.
There are two options here. (At least, maybe more.)

(1) Follow the standard D&D rules (I know the ones in B/X and AD&D) for assigning values to gems. So each gem has an "objective" value, which is determined by rolling on the relevant tables. In the fiction, as best I can make sense of these rules, that "objective" value is based on size, clarity and cut.

On this approach, if a diamond or ruby becomes more valuable in the market because of its fame/association, then that is not a factor for spellcasting purposes. And the GM would need to track its "objective" value alongside its "market" value. (By analogy, an ordinary longsword has an objective value given in the price list, but might have a higher market value if it was once wielded by King Thrommel.)

(2) Treat the increase in market due to fame etc as also being relevant to spell casting. In this case, only one value needs to be tracked.


I think the game probably assumes or defaults to (1), though it's hardly clear on the matter. I don't think that (2) will break anything at all.

EDIT: I see that @Maxperson favours approach (1). But you favour approach (2). To my mind, both are completely fine as far as game play is concerned.
 

There are two options here. (At least, maybe more.)

(1) Follow the standard D&D rules (I know the ones in B/X and AD&D) for assigning values to gems. So each gem has an "objective" value, which is determined by rolling on the relevant tables. In the fiction, as best I can make sense of these rules, that "objective" value is based on size, clarity and cut.

On this approach, if a diamond or ruby becomes more valuable in the market because of its fame/association, then that is not a factor for spellcasting purposes. And the GM would need to track its "objective" value alongside its "market" value. (By analogy, an ordinary longsword has an objective value given in the price list, but might have a higher market value if it was once wielded by King Thrommel.)

Yeah, it would need the GM to track both values for the same ruby, its rubiosity value for the purpose of spellcasting and its market value for the purpose of selling it. Also, the "objective" value isn't size, clarity and cut. These qualities are objecive, but they don't, by themselves, create value if there is noone to prefer them bigger, clearer and faceted.

A ruby with a $5000 objective value is worth $5000 because people want it based on its cut, size and clarity, because they like rubies of a certain size right now, in our current context. Much like they will pay more for an item owned by KK, since they desire such an item. So in both case, the value comes from people's desire, but only some reasons for wanting it (and being ready to pay for it) contribute to its usefulness to spellcasting.

That's... really strange-sounding as an explanation for when in-universe scholars (ie, PCs) try to determine the behavior of their rubies (I had to design adventure over my PCs wanting to prove Morgrave university that rabbit had souls and designed experiments to scientifically approach the question, so I wouldn't be surprise this rubiosity to be questionned by inquring minds). Especially when they notice that a big cabochon ruby ground to dust can power the exact same spell than the smaller amount of ruby dust you get when powdering the gem coming from the big cabochon, turned into a much smaller but more valuable faceted cut (assuming that the cabochon value, determined by the tables when you find it, is the objective value).

Which leads to the question, what is the spellcasting value of the ruby dust you get by grinding the by-products of faceting your big ruby? It should be none (since all the rubiosity is in the main gem), so there is ruby dust that is worth something on the market, and that can't be used for spellcasting. And this zero-rubiosity byproducts can be cut into small ruby with a market value themselves (like the Cullinan II to IX and 96 minor brillants made from the Cullinan diamond. It will puzzle scholars for years (I assure you, sometimes my players do kills orc and take their stuff, too). And so its possible to by a $5000 ruby on the market, that people desire because of its size and cut, and yet has zero objective rubiosity value for the purpose of spellcasting, if it was made from the byproduct of cutting a larger diamond.

(note for the trivia I learnt thinking of this: The largest part of the Cullinan diamond was after cutting valued 2.5 times the rough diamond despite being 1/6 of its size, according to the Cullinan wikipedia page.)

(2) Treat the increase in market due to fame etc as also being relevant to spell casting. In this case, only one value needs to be tracked.

I think the game probably assumes or defaults to (1), though it's hardly clear on the matter. I don't think that (2) will break anything at all.

EDIT: I see that @Maxperson favours approach (1). But you favour approach (2). To my mind, both are completely fine as far as game play is concerned.

I really favor (2) in this case because (1) sounds really jarring to me (and opens questions like the one above), with two values being tracked separately, especially when the "objective" value isn't a physical measurement (like weight) but a subjective measurment (it's cut in a way that local think is pretty right now). So if I find a gem in an ancient ruin cut in cabochon (the most prized cut for Romans who considered faceted gemstone vulgar) it has a rubiosity value of $5000 for spellcasting purpose, is worth $2500 on the market because the cut is meh by today's standard but can be cut by an expert lapidary into a $10000 ruby by making it into a cushion cut. If the objective value is $2500, that's three values to track, the objective value, the rubiosity value, and the market value in its potential, actually sought-after state -- but if I teleport to another place where cabochon are still in favour, I switch the values for faceted and cabochon on the market. I much prefer (2), with a single value to track, depending only the market value, with sentient magic so we don't get shenanigans between PCs and there is a reasonable explanation in-game (the size of the diamond doesn't matter, but the spells contact the god of death and compels him to listen to your plea. Sacrificing so much wealth over a dead comrade proves your love for him and moves the god so he accepts to try and put its soul back in the body.).
 
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Yeah, it would need the GM to track both values for the same ruby, its rubiosity value for the purpose of spellcasting and its market value for the purpose of selling it. Also, the "objective" value isn't size, clarity and cut. These qualities are objecive, but they don't, by themselves, create value if there is noone to prefer them bigger, clearer and faceted.

A ruby with a $5000 objective value is worth $5000 because people want it based on its cut, size and clarity, because they like rubies of a certain size right now, in our current context.
That's why I put "objective" in inverted commas: in one sense it is "objective", in that there are game rules (treasure generation tables) that spit it out as the value of a gem; but in another sense it is not objective, in that it is the product of the desires of people for gems.

Much like they will pay more for an item owned by KK, since they desire such an item. So in both case, the value comes from people's desire, but only some reasons for wanting it (and being ready to pay for it) contribute to its usefulness to spellcasting.

That's... really strange-sounding as an explanation for when in-universe scholars (ie, PCs) try to determine the behavior of their rubies
Not really. The goddess of gemstones probably admires gems that are large, clear and beautifully cut. But she probably doesn't care who owned, or who cut, the gem.

So if I find a gem in an ancient ruin cut in cabochon (the most prized cut for Romans who considered faceted gemstone vulgar) it has a rubiosity value of $5000 for spellcasting purpose, is worth $2500 on the market because the cut is meh by today's standard but can be cut by an expert lapidary into a $10000 ruby by making it into a cushion cut.
The rules for gems in D&D don't make allowance for change in fashions of cut. At least not the ones I'm familiar with (B/X, AD&D and 4e). Maybe the 5e rulebooks discuss this?
 

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