Undead?Dread necromancer?

[frankthedm]

I don't see any reason you wouldn't get the lich template, despite being (ordinarily) illegal. The specific overrides the general. There are already precedents: the Dragon Disciple turning half dragon with no LA, a spell that applies the fiendish template to undead, monks treat unarmed strikes as manufactured weapons, and so forth. A class ability should, IMO, give you exactly what it says it does.

The class ability does give you exactly what it says it does. It specifies that humanoid dread necromancers become liches at 20th level. The text of the special ability is very specific that you don't get the lich template if you are are not a humanoid. Heroes of Horror was quite up front about that.

 

[Jason Opheim]

I understand what the rules say

I understand what the rules say. Yes the rules say no. Just like the rules say outsiders cant become undead. Look at Orcus. Remember the golden rule. My DM says maybee and I hope he lets me do it. Im paying for it so wether it makes sense to you or not mechanical I dont think it will destroy the game. Besides most of the abilities that a lich gets the dread necro has before becomeing a lich. So all Im really getting is the Phylactery and a few stat points. Im not getting all the other undead abilities that my character already has. So if anything im getting the shaft in a way. Look at the main guy in the Lord of the rings he was not a lich but that ring was like a phylactery was it not? I DM also and I try to make the story more important than the rules and that is the golden rule. To me my job as the DM is for the PC's to have fun. Thats what my dm is doing. He knows the rules very well and I was a little surprised when he told me maybee. Some day when my character retires he will make a great Villian in my campaign.

 

[frankthedm]

IIm paying for it so wether it makes sense to you or not mechanical I dont think it will destroy the game.

The above response was to show that the class ability itself was the reason why lich would not normally apply to the character. Any issues of balance would lie more in the epic rules than any class or template combos. Destroying the game won't be done by your 'shadow lich'.

IMHO upon creation of the Phylactery, since the shadow is it's own spirit, it should be sucked in to the phylactery and in 1d10 days a lich body forms to use.

 

[lukelightning]

I don't see any reason you wouldn't get the lich template, despite being (ordinarily) illegal. The specific overrides the general.

Right; and both the lich template and the dread necromancer description explicitly state that it wouldn't work. The lich template can only be applied to humanoids, which a shadow is not. And the dread necro description says that if the dread necromancer is not a valid subject for becoming a lich the dread transformation does nothing.

For those of you saying "c'mon, this is about creativity..." this is the rules forum. This is a rules question. The rules are clear that a shadow cannot become a lich. Sure, a DM can change the rules, but then why bother asking the rules forum about this?

 

[Jason Opheim]

Your right I am in a rules forum. So you think he would get all the other abilities just not the lich template. Obvioulsy he will not get the undead stuff he already has it anyways.

 

[pawsplay]

Ah, I missed that in my haste. Apologies.

 

[frankthedm]

The PC is carrying multiple LA and some virtual LA from SS into Epic. He probably needs all the help he can get. His HP have got to be anemic for epic without any CON. The Character's main bounus is that those epic monsters don't get to play "Whack your stats!" with ability damage, ability drain, etc on him.

 

[Jason Opheim]

Your right I am low in the hp game. I have necrotic reserve and that saves my butt allot. Being a drow I have spell resistance and dont forget the 50% miss chance on incorporeal creatures. Rogue gives me evasion so thats very helpful. Evolved undead gives me fast healing 3 so im constantly healing step in the wall and heal away. But what makes my character truly mean is that I have two weapon and improved two weapon fighting. So I have 4 attacks a round that all do 1d8 str plus half again(Empowered ability damage). Five if I turn on my haste ability given to me from evolved undead. Each time I drain str I get 5 temporary hp. On a crit with improved crit 19-20 I gain 10. Touch Ac is so easy to hit that im not hindered by a little minus from useing two weapon and improved two weapon. Dont forget Incorporeal creatures use there dex instead of str to hit either. With all my magic items and the tome I read I have a 29 dex. Low average if I hit every time with the str not useing haste is 24 high average 28. So I can do away real quick with things that dont have a ungodly str.

 

[frankthedm]

Your right I am low in the hp game. I have necrotic reserve and that saves my butt allot. Being a drow I have spell resistance and dont forget the 50% miss chance on incorporeal creatures. Rogue gives me evasion so thats very helpful. Evolved undead gives me fast healing 3 so im constantly healing step in the wall and heal away. But what makes my character truly mean is that I have two weapon and improved two weapon fighting. So I have 4 attacks a round that all do 1d8 str plus half again(Empowered ability damage). Five if I turn on my haste ability given to me from evolved undead. Each time I drain str I get 5 temporary hp. On a crit with improved crit 19-20 I gain 10. Touch Ac is so easy to hit that im not hindered by a little minus from useing two weapon and improved two weapon. Dont forget Incorporeal creatures use there dex instead of str to hit either. With all my magic items and the tome I read I have a 29 dex. Low average if I hit every time with the str not useing haste is 24 high average 28. So I can do away real quick with things that dont have a ungodly str.

Incorp touch does not work with two weapon fighting and definitly not with BAB based attacks[greater two weapon fighting]. Also, are one of your feats allowing that 'healing'? Shadows damage stats, not drain them and an undead has to drain to get any healing/temporary HP.

 

[Jason Opheim]

Monster manual 3.5 page (221) says shadows do ability damage not ability drain. But under ability drain page (305) it says they gain 5 tempoorary hit points whenever it drains an ability score. How ever Libris mortis on page 9 under undead diet seems to say something else. It has a 1 next to shadow and below it says( causes ability drain or damage, which may also provide the undead with temporary hit points. If you read it you will see what im talking about. Why would two weapon not alow me to make more attacks? Are you saying I cant drain mulitiple times. I have the fast healing quality from evolved undead if thats what you were talking about.