D&D 5E Undead Templates: Unless I missed them, we really need these.

[Demetrios1453]

In the Dungeon Master's Guide, there's a table of NPC races. Zombies get a +1 to Strength, +2 to Constitution, -6 to Intelligence, -4 to Wisdom, and -4 to Charisma. They have speed 20, a natural slam attack that deals 1d6 + Strength, Darkvision 60, Undead Fortitude, and they understand all languages that they knew in life, but cannot speak.

The problem with that is those adjustments may work well with the (living) creatures elsewhere on that chart, but don't do well for other creatures. And if you attempt to use them to recreate the skeleton and zombie examples from the MM, you'll get different results than what is in that book.

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[Azzy]

Considering you have to manually recalculate CR anyways, are templates really a time-saver in 5e over simply throwing new stats together?

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Considering you have to manually recalculate CR anyways, are templates really a time-saver in 5e over simply throwing new stats together?

Not in my experience.

But then, I think the time-save approach is there if a DM knows where to look; pick a row on the Monster Statistics by Challenge Rating chart in the DMG, and fine-tune with flavor and quickly pilfered traits from other monsters, trending toward the lower end of the hp range if there are resistances or you wanted a higher AC, and trending toward the lower end of the damage range if you want a higher attack bonus/save DC or consequences of attacks other than damage.

Of course, that's coming from me, and I'm a guy that has spent years practicing the art of zero-prep DMing, so for me a "zombie template" is arrived at by opening the Monster Manual to zombie and going "Well, they are all immune to poison, dumb, slow, and have the Undead Fortitude trait - I'll just apply that to any other monster I want to seem zombie-like and assume no change in CR unless it's below CR 2 since Ogre and Ogre Zombie are both CR 2."

 

[Xetheral]

Considering you have to manually recalculate CR anyways, are templates really a time-saver in 5e over simply throwing new stats together?

Templates (whether official or ad-hoc as [MENTION=6701872]AaronOfBarbaria[/MENTION] described above) certainly *can* be a time saver, but it depends on your DMing style. Lots of DMs outright ignore CR all together, preferring to just eyeball encounter difficulty or even not care about level-appropriate encounters in the first place. For these DMs, templates (of both varieties) can be a fantastic time saver.

Another style of DMing where templates are useful is the type that prioritizes verisimilitude extremely highly. To these DMs, templates help make sure that the in-game outcome of (e.g.) zombification is predictable and consistent, which is valuable to them because such consistency makes the world feel more "real".

 

[seebs]

I thought the templates were awesome when I first encountered them, but... Actually I don't miss them at all. The answer now is much simpler: The stats for mummy and mummy lord are the stats for mummy and mummy lord. That's it. It's not a "template". It doesn't need to reflect the stats of the body's previous owner. It's just what a mummy is like.

It makes some sense to have things for zombie/skeleton, since you are likely to want to animate various bodies, but... Who needs templates? If I want to make a ghast from a giant, I'll just look at the stat blocks and wing it. This will be at least as reliable as the template system ever was, with fewer utterly broken applications.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

And if a DM doesn't have time or energy to create that entire canvas and would much rather have the paint-by-numbers so they can save what little free time is available?

...er...I'm trying to be gentle here...ahem... "They he's playing the wrong game/version".

I'm honestly not trying to sound flippant or mean or anything. I honestly believe that if you (generic "you") are finding it difficult to DM a RPG because that RPG requires more time to do so, then you are simply playing a game that just demands more time than you have and you should move on to another game system.

I'm DM'ing a campaign right now that is simple, yet needs me to do a lot of monster, spell, magic item, etc., creation. The game is free (it's the Dominion Rules RPG; http://www.dominionrules.org ),but the number of NPC's and monsters in the book are quite limited. In fact, there are all of 17 "beasts". As for Magic Items...there are zero. Yes, 0. If I didn't have time to devote to creating my own stuff, then I simply wouldn't have chosen it. I would have went with something more 'complete'; like Hackmaster 4e, or Rolemaster, HARP, etc.

I created giant zombies and skeletons in my "Homebrew Giant Elites" thread - and heartily disliked the fact I had to do so. I believe it would be much more beneficial for DMs to simply have skeleton and zombie templates (at the least) to have to apply to appropriate creatures so they can get on to more important things - like, you know, actually building the adventure. You and I may have the time and will to create new creatures whole-cloth, but there are a lot of DMs out there who don't, and would much rather have something to plug-and-play...

I can totally understand where you are coming from, if I get your gist....which is to say that I think "you" (again, a generic 'you') want "stuff" so that you can play this game. This game, being 5e, however, isn't geared towards that type of consumer. It is geared towards the type of consumer who isn't afraid to roll up their sleeves and get to work mastering their own campaign world. Tinkering with rules, creating monsters, adding new arch-types, magic items, etc. As for the Player-consumer...5e is geared towards the same sort of "roll your own". Players are sort of expected/encouraged/forced to actually collaborate with their DM if something doesn't exist or doesn't quite fit their PC concept. No matter how you slice it...5e simply requires more DM and Player 'work' than 2e and 3.x through 4e (including PF) did. Those other editions have a multitude of additional books and whatnot available to buy. You could still create your own stuff, but you could just throw money at it to save time and settle for someone else's "close enough" idea.

BUT, as I said, 5e just isn't designed with the "We'll do it for you and you give us money", and I don't think anything's going to change that. So "your" options are "Give up other things in your life to make time to create your own, unique, stuff", or "Choose a different RPG system/edition". (Man does that sound harsh! Not indented, just a cold hard fact...imho)

On another note...converting/using another version or even game system is fairly trivial, imho. The 5e system is VERY forgiving in terms of numbers...even with (or because of?) it's BA. If a "+7" bonus in 3e is floating around at level 3, then just equate that with "decent" and then pick what would be a "decent" bonus for 5e; say, +3. Done. If you are off by a point in either direction, it's likely not going to derail a game. It's also trivial to just decide "I'll make this Hill Giant undead...a ghoul. So I'll just give it the ghoul paralysis and calling it done", is fine. It will work. It's not going to break the game. As there are no "templates" in the 5e system, the DM isn't going to feel like they are 'being lazy', and the players aren't going to get PO'ed by saying 'the Ghoul Template does X, Y and Z...nothing about Q! The DM is cheating!". IMHO the perceived 'lack' of such additions are a GOOD thing and actually make the game FASTER to run, change and create.

I'm starting to ramble, so I'll leave it at that.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[ArwensDaughter]

There's also some discussion of undead templates in this thread: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?493380-Zombie-skeleton-and-other-undead-templates

 

[Corpsetaker]

Anyone know of a Half-Fiend template for 5th edition?

I would use the Cambion but they are more tied to an Incubus,Succubus.

 

[Kabouter Games]

I can totally understand where you are coming from, if I get your gist....which is to say that I think "you" (again, a generic 'you') want "stuff" so that you can play this game. This game, being 5e, however, isn't geared towards that type of consumer. It is geared towards the type of consumer who isn't afraid to roll up their sleeves and get to work mastering their own campaign world. Tinkering with rules, creating monsters, adding new arch-types, magic items, etc. As for the Player-consumer...5e is geared towards the same sort of "roll your own". Players are sort of expected/encouraged/forced to actually collaborate with their DM if something doesn't exist or doesn't quite fit their PC concept. No matter how you slice it...5e simply requires more DM and Player 'work' than 2e and 3.x through 4e (including PF) did. Those other editions have a multitude of additional books and whatnot available to buy. You could still create your own stuff, but you could just throw money at it to save time and settle for someone else's "close enough" idea.

BUT, as I said, 5e just isn't designed with the "We'll do it for you and you give us money", and I don't think anything's going to change that. So "your" options are "Give up other things in your life to make time to create your own, unique, stuff", or "Choose a different RPG system/edition". (Man does that sound harsh! Not indented, just a cold hard fact...imho)

Say it again for the people in the back. SAY IT AGAIN FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK.



This needs to be posted in every single "I want XYZ splat/class/build/whatsit" thread. This needs to be a sticky which pops up every time someone types the word "Wizards needs to do..." in these forums.

THANK YOU.

Cheers,

Bob

www.r-p-davis.com

 

[Xeviat]

Isn't the Dracolich a template? And half-dragon? They exist. They're just not numerous.

And it would be trivially easy to give ballpark guidelines for how a template would raise CR.


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