Underwater Flying [2006 Thread]

[irdeggman]

But StealthyMark states you can't use Fly Speed underwater, why then can you use Land Speed? And no, a common sense answer is obviously not good enough...

Pg 92 of the DMG (Table 3-22) says that you when you have Firm Footing you have half your movement (basically it costs twice as much movment points per square as normal) and the note 3 states:

Creatures have firm footing when walking along the bottom, braced against a ship’s hull, or the like. A creature can only walk along the bottom if it wears or carries enough gear to weigh itself down—at least 16 pounds for Medium creatures, twice that for each size category larger than Medium, and half that for each size category smaller than Medium.

So, yes you can "walk" on the bottom of the river or other body of water.

Can you use a swim speed for flying?

How about a burrowing speed?


Essentially that is what is being proposed - to allow alternate movement types in other "terrains".


Can you use swim, burrow or fly speeds when levitating? If so which ones?

 

[irdeggman]

Is the new invocation Least or Lesser?

I don't remember off hand - I'll check when I get home.

 

[Infiniti2000]

THREAD RESURRECTION!

 

[Musrum]

Pg 92 of the DMG (Table 3-22) says that you when you have Firm Footing you have half your movement (basically it costs twice as much movment points per square as normal) and the note 3 states:



So, yes you can "walk" on the bottom of the river or other body of water.

Can you use a swim speed for flying?

How about a burrowing speed?


Essentially that is what is being proposed - to allow alternate movement types in other "terrains".


Can you use swim, burrow or fly speeds when levitating? If so which ones?

And on pg93 of the DMG it states that swimming characters move "as if they were flying with perfect maneuverability". So it seems you can fly underwater (quite well in fact).

 

[Patlin]

THREAD RESURRECTION!

I suppose it's better than simply starting a new thread and having everyone yell at you for not using search.

I'm pretty sure I've read comics with Superman and Aquaman in them where Superman was flying underwater.

 

[irdeggman]

And on pg93 of the DMG it states that swimming characters move "as if they were flying with perfect maneuverability". So it seems you can fly underwater (quite well in fact).

The key phrase is "as if" which covers the how to handle 3 dimensional movement not the fly speed issue.

 

[KarinsDad]

PS Please don't like KD read this thread, I gave up on these forums for awhile after that debate with him on this topic.

Yeah, that worked out GREAT last time!


Fly Speed versus Swim Speed.

RAW does not allow it.

However, it is perfectly reasonable for a DM to allow it.

 

[Artoomis]

Actually RAW does not either allow nor disallow this, I think. It is simply not dealt with - which is not the same as disallowed.

Common sense must rule the day. (Oh, no, not THAT.... AGAIN!).

I think the rules I proposed above are the best way to go, but certainly any DM is free to say, sorry - it's a "fly" speed and that does not work underwater. I think that approach is not very good, myself, as water is a three dimensional environment very much like air - but a whole lot thicker and not breathable.

In fact, now that I think about it, the distinction between natural flight and magic flight may not be needed. It certainly won't come up much, if at all, in in most games, so it probably is a red herring anyway.

 

[Deset Gled]

From the SRD:

Movement Modes: Creatures may have modes of movement other than walking and running. These are natural, not magical, unless specifically noted in a monster description.

...

Fly: A creature with a fly speed can move through the air at the indicated speed if carrying no more than a light load. (Note that medium armor does not necessarily constitute a medium load.) All fly speeds include a parenthetical note indicating maneuverability, as follows:

...

Swim: A creature with a swim speed can move through water at its swim speed without making Swim checks. It has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. The creature can always can choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. The creature can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

This quote illustrates two points. First, flying is movement through air, and swimming is movement through water. You cannot fly through water any more than you could swim through the air. Second, the opening statement for this section clarifies that it applies to both magical and nonmagical flight. Magical flight may allow for different abilities and benefits while in the air (for example, the Fly spell specifically allows for creatures to fly with a medium or heavy load), but there is not a different set of rules for flight from different sources.

While using a mode of flight to move through water may seem reasonable to some people, I cannot see how it is supported by the rules in any way.

 

[Artoomis]

...While using a mode of flight to move through water may seem reasonable to some people, I cannot see how it is supported by the rules in any way.

It is simply not addressed.

There are many potential ways to handle it. A bonus to swim checks would be one. The way I proposed is another.

The bottom line is that the rules simple neglected to cover what happens to a "fly" speed underwater.

You can assume tha means this was intentional and a fly speed simply has not bearing whatsoever on underwater movement.

You can use the rules I proposed, assuming the lack of rules about how flying works when underwater was simply a oversight.

You could add in a bonus to swimming.

None of these are particularly right or wrong.

We have to stop thinking the rules are written with some sort of divinely-inspired precision. They are not. The mere fact that something is left out does not means it does not work. It also does not mean it DOES work, of course. It just requires a little thought on the matter and then making the best decision for your game.