Underworld Vampires & Werewolves SPOILERS

[Kai Lord]

And the general coolness of vampires was underutilized. Jumping off of buildings and clinging to ceilings added nothing to the story other than to say "look, we have super-powers, too!"

What do you consider to be the "general coolness" of vampires? I'd rather watch a vinyl-clad Kate Beckinsale rise statuesquely from the ground after leaping off a building than a hateful undead monster ripping someone's throat out any day of the week.

 

[Mercule]

I always thought werewolves were more powerful than vampires anyway. The only thing that gives vampires the edge is that they are smarter and can control their savagery.

Of course, I am a big werewolf fan so I have to take their side

Feh! If you turned a grocery store bag-boy into a vampire and let him be ambushed by the five most powerful werewolves on the planet, the bag-boy shouldn't even break a sweat as he ended their wretched existence.

But, likewise, I'm a vampire fanboy, so my opinion may be a bit skewed, too. I really have nothing against werewolves, and actually think they're pretty cool. I just think vampires are that much cooler.

 

[jdavis]

Personally i thought the movie was pretty good, for an action film. What people seems to misunderstand is that action films are not made for winning oscars in best actor/ess, but just to entertain people.

There was really no excuse for just how bad some of the acting was, and there were several lines that were just stupid, there is a baseline of believability that even action movies need to reach. I blame the director for much of it as a good actor delivering a dumb line or being put in a awkward setting is the directors fault. Well Kraven was just a bad actor.

Well, as people as explained, vampires have number on their side, plus better organization, plus they control lots of money and power. Also, the Viktor didn't just beat up a regular werewolf. In the beginning it is said that only the truly ancient werewolves can change form at will, and that black guy can defiantly change form at will.

It was a full moon out all werewolves could change at will in the final battle.

Then, there is the fact that in the 21st century, who ever got the better technology wins. Claws and fangs are no match for explosives and guns. (Most of the time)

Yes but if I wanted crazy gunfighting I could just go rent The Matrix, the Vampires vs. Werewolf angle was what made this movie different. Besides the Werewolves just forgot about their super amunition at the end (even though they had a scene showing the ammo was just laying around for them to use.)

Yea, same here. Seeing as the movie only cost 27 million to make, they are bound to make enough to make a sequal.

Sequel is already in the works: http://www.moviehole.net/search.php?q=underworld&Go.x=19&Go.y=14

 

[Kai Lord]

Lucian said the blood was to turn Michael into a Abomination, Michael already had the pure bloodline as the decendent of the "third son", but he needed the vampire blood of a elder to become both Vampire and Werewolf (he got the were wolf part when Lucian bit him). At the end Selene bit him because he was going to die otherwise, they didn't break a rule there the people involved got desperate, being as Lucian and Michael were both dying, they had to risk it). I don't know if they eventually said they were going to try to turn all the werewolves but I am pretty sure it was stated that the elder blood was to turn Michael.

Well now you're making me question my recollection of how the Abomination process was described. I thought the blood of a vampire elder + the blood of a Lycan immortal + Michael's bloodline = Abomination. I was under the impression that Lucian was going to give himself a transfusion of Amelia and Michael's blood to augment himself and possibly others. It didn't seem they could trust Michael to do their dirty work since the hatred of the other side was learned and not instinctual.

Selene was one step removed from Victor, so her saliva was apparently enough to do the trick in Michael's case, or it was the love behind the kiss that did it.

If I'm recalling the details incorrectly, it isn't hard to chalk up the Abomination process as expirimental and not fully understood by even the doctor Lycan. Worst case scenario, the characters thought Michael needed Amelia's blood when all it took was Selene. I could see the scholars being proven wrong in the wake of love. It worked when Trinity did it to bring Neo back, and is even more fitting in the context of Underworld's Shakespearean melodrama.

 

[John Crichton]

Just got back from seeing it. Kai Lord has it right.

Lucian needed the vamp elder + Micheal's blood to go with his own to make himself a powerful hybrid. For Micheal, all that was needed was the bite of both a werewolf (didn't hurt that it was an elder) and a vampire. Selene did not know this nor did he know about the bloodline history at that point (someone mentioned that in the other thread and they were correct).

I don't know about the "love's kiss" thing and personally I think that is a cheezy storytelling technique (hated it in The Matrix, for example) but the story is strong enough that you don't actually need it to explain Micheal's transformation.

EDIT: Victor was the one who called the vamp+werewolf an abomination, not Lucian. Why would Lucian call it an abomination when that was what he was striving to become?

 

[Kai Lord]

I don't know about the "love's kiss" thing and personally I think that is a cheezy storytelling technique (hated it in The Matrix, for example) but the story is strong enough that you don't actually need it to explain Micheal's transformation.

Cool. I thought that was the case, but jdavis and the guy on the other thread made me second guess myself. The "kiss of love" still would have worked for me (though its cool that in Underworld's case its merely symbolic) because I like over the top action films to be balanced with operatic drama (Underworld, LOTR films, the first Matrix, John Woo, etc.)

 

[jdavis]

I would have to go back and see it again (which I won't), but I totally missed any reference to Lucian using the blood to turn himself. Mine wasn't a direct quote I think the term he used was hybrid not abomination but I thought he (and the little scientist guy who was being interagated) were talking about needing the blood to turn Michael.

I guess I just missed they were using the blood on themselves bit, which actually takes away from the movie for me as instead of trying to create a superbeing the werewolves were trying to taint their own blood with that of a vampire. I liked the superbeing bit better than the werewolves wanting to become Hybrids (or abominations or vampire/werewolves or whatever). It also gets a little convoluted as I thought that the whole reason they needed him was that his blood could handle being both and they needed somebody with the bloodline but was neither to start with, what your saying was that they were going to use his blood to make some super serum or something (because a little bit of Michael's blood will change all of their blood to the original bloodline?) See it just gets a little convoluted and silly. I thought Lucien was trying to make a abomination (hybrid) to send to kill Viktor. Oh well I guess I just misinterpeted the whole movie.

 

[reapersaurus]

OK- what do you want to know?
My wife and I effectively saw Underworld twice today, since the film broke in the first showing about 2/3rds of the way thru, and we had to move to another theater to pick up the last 2/3rd of the movie.

About Abominations:
There were (strangely) 2 Abomination plot points going - Lucien's attempts to become a super-being by fusing Michaels and Amelia's with his own blood, and then Michael's being bitten by both werewolf and vampire.

What I thought curious is that after spending quite some screen time on Lucien's plans, and showing them be fruitful, they DIDN'T have him benefit from the plan.
He injected himself with Michael's blood, then was shot (and survived) right as Amelia's blood was brought to him. (BTW: it took WAY too long for the blood to be brought back - his plans worked, and he should have implemented it, becoming the Abomination, not Michael)

Similarly, if an Abomination was something to be feared even by Elders, than Michael should have been the one to kill Viktor, not Selene.
But she's gotta be the hero - god, I hate that.

MY review will be in the other thread, so I think the only other spoiler being discussed here so far is the powerz:
I agree that I wish more vampire powers would have been displayed, but if they did, the WW copying would have been even more blatant (since WW vampires have just about every power under the moon covered by SOME Discipline), and many of them would have been tough to film.

If I was going to discuss the gun-dominance from a gaming standpoint, I think the battles were pretty close to what might happen in the World of Darkness IF they had ammunition like in Underworld. The only reason why guns don't dominate in WW is because they only do bashing damage (easily overcome) - the second they introduce aggravated-damage bullets to WW, you can bet your bottom dollar that almost every fight would be dictated by gun battle, and you'd see almost every character use firearms to the point that other powers would be almost non-existant... obsolete... neglected.

Ironically, only the eldest used a weapon other than a gun: Selene with her shuriken, and Viktor with his sword. This does follow logic, since they were the oldest action-type characters, so they would be the most likely to have secondary weapons still practiced.

 

[Kai Lord]

Similarly, if an Abomination was something to be feared even by Elders, than Michael should have been the one to kill Viktor, not Selene.
But she's gotta be the hero - god, I hate that.

No, no, no, it would have been EXTREMELY poor filmmaking if Michael had finished off Viktor after Selene had been the focus for 90% of the film. Her journey becomes meaningless if she's sidelined at the last minute.

The Abomination was something to be feared by Elders, but I was actually impressed that they didn't give Michael a cliched "Rocky" moment and have him finally find his inner strength and just start throwing down on Viktor. Finally the Lycans had something that was strong and fast enough to go toe to toe with Viktor, unfortunately there's no accounting for hundreds of years of refined skill and experience.

It was awesome that after all the buildup Michael's raw newborn powers weren't enough to overcome the Elder's combat sense and technique. They were enough to distract him long enough for the actual protagonist of the story to defeat the ancient vampire who killed her family in a credible manner, however.

We got the payoff of seeing Michael change, yet Selene's story still came full circle with a satisfying resolution, all without "cheating" or contradicting the established power levels of any of the principle characters. Well done all around.

 

[reapersaurus]

See, I (slightly) don't agree.
Just because Selene was the focus of the story and onscreen a significant portion of time, doesn't mean to me that she needs to kill Viktor.

In fact, it was not even until the very end that she held anything but the utmost respect for the guy. The STORY spent most of its time forwarding the idea that an Abomination was going to kill Viktor - almost Fate-like.

So it's kind of characterization vs plot/story there - should the character aspects be rewarded, or the plot? I strongly am on the side of plot, since I don't think characterization is done well enough in most movies - not enough time to create a character, PLUS Selene wasn't a classic "growth" character. What "journey" did her character make? I didn't see much growth there - she was a Death Dealer at the beginning, and she's a Death Dealer at the end. All she did was move her hatred of who killed her family from the Lycans to Viktor - no big change there.

I agree that I was glad not to see a 'Rocky' move from Micheal. I would have preffered to see him just slice up Viktor, but it's a good point about new-found powers vs. tons of skill and practice.

This wasn't a typical single-protagonist movie. In fact, if the story was really good, I would have preferred to see the true protagonist/victim, _LUCIAN_, be given center-stage at the end and have become the Abomination himself to get Revenge on Viktor for killing his love. THAT would have been very impressive, and they were THAT close to doing it, but they wimped out and went with Michael as the Abomination.
It's too bad, because the story was leading up to it, too.