Underworld Vampires & Werewolves SPOILERS

[Brown Jenkin]

A few points that I noticed and will comment on.

Because of the whole WW controvery I was paying attention for the word abomination. I only heard it once and that was Viktor's refrence to Lucian and his daughters unborn child. The way I interpreted that line was as a lower case abomination refering to the mixing of the bloods. Yes Lucian was trying to mix the bloodlines later in another way later but the abomination that I interpreted Viktor refering to was not some prophesy but a bigoted hatred for his grandchild having a Lycan father.

As for Michael's role in this the way I understood it was that he was the carrier of the ability to mutate the viruses to be compatible with each other. I don't quite understand how Lucian's baby could inherit this ability. As far as I can tell if Lucian or Viktor's daughter ever bit each other and transfered thier respective viruses they would die. Since it is virus based Lucian's baby would only have the vampire virus from his mother and not be a capital A Abomination. Now in order for Lucian or anyone else to carry both viruses they would need Michaels blood to act as a the catalyst that allows both viruses to be compatible. That is why everyone else who was bitten by both died.

This also works for the ending where the sequal is setup as Markus is of the same DNA decent as Michael. It was the Lycans who figured out that there was a DNA bloodline that would unite the viruses and they were trying thier hardest to keep the vampires from realizing this. As Markus is of the same DNA line as Michael if the vampires had known this I don't see why the vampires via Markus wouldn't have already become superbeings.

Lastly in the opening post they stated that Werewolves were very strong and had regeneration while vampires did not. This is incorrect as Selene demonsted both of those traits. She picked Michael up by the neck one handed and held him against the wall. Additionally Lucian stabed her with a sword and she was bleeding to death but by the next day that wound was completely healed.

Edited for clarity and spelling.

 

[John Crichton]

I'm going to have to agree with Kai Lord on the Selene killing Victor point. It was her right to kill him, not Michael's. I half-expected Michael to take him out, which would have been okay with me (reapersaurus makes an excellent agruement towards this) but I like the fact that Selene served a purpose in the end rather than sitting on the sidelines, which she didn't do the rest of the movie so why give the final "glory" to someone else when it was rightfully hers?

To add to reapersaurus's point about Lucian and main characters - I was commenting to a friend right after we saw the film that Selene, which the main character, really didn't have the best part in the film. Those belonged to Lucian & Kraven. Actually, Kraven had the juiciest part - it was too bad that the actor who played him had no charisma all at. I'm not saying he did a bad acting job, he did an average job with a part that could have really been knocked out the park (imagine Depp in the role, for example). Lucian's character was excellent and easily the most interesting in the film. The actor did a wonderful job and the plot for that character was much better than the typical villain role in genre films (you know - sneering, bloodthirsty, etc).

 

[Kai Lord]

See, I (slightly) don't agree.
Just because Selene was the focus of the story and onscreen a significant portion of time, doesn't mean to me that she needs to kill Viktor.

In fact, it was not even until the very end that she held anything but the utmost respect for the guy. The STORY spent most of its time forwarding the idea that an Abomination was going to kill Viktor - almost Fate-like.

No, the story spent its time revealing Selene's growing feelings for Michael against the backdrop of her personal war against the Lycans.

So it's kind of characterization vs plot/story there - should the character aspects be rewarded, or the plot? I strongly am on the side of plot, since I don't think characterization is done well enough in most movies - not enough time to create a character, PLUS Selene wasn't a classic "growth" character.

The entire movie was about Selene's growth.

What "journey" did her character make?

She went from reckless hatred toward all Lycans, to love for one Lycan, to tolerance/acceptance of all Lycans, though that last bit was mostly implied.

In ending her bigotry toward all Lycans, it was only fitting that Selene begin by pulling out the root that planted it in the first place. Viktor.

I believe its misguided to look at the movie as centering around the Abomination process. That really doesn't matter. What matters is that we have a girl who was taught to hate an entire race. When other members of her race secretly band together with the other side, she gets very angry and defies her own team as well, going awol, disregarding the chain of command and waging the war on her terms, even seeking the counsel of the one person she knows hates the other side as much as she does.

Viktor and Lucian may have set the events in motion that started the war, but Selene is a distilled, perfect byproduct of the war. She is the true hybrid, not Michael. She is Lucian's rage for losing her family (as he lost his lover) combined with Viktor's cold-blooded drive and efficiency.

The major theme of the film is spirit vs. genetics, with spirit prevailing. The Vampires and Lycans were taught to hate each other because of the other side's genetics. Selene learned to love a Lycan for his character instead.

Lucian and Kraven believed that to beat an Elder, they had to create a being with "super genetics." But once again, the focus on genetics was misguided because the super-being was beaten and it was Selene's spirit which succeeded where the best DNA in the world had failed.

I also see symbolism of the Biblical story of Abraham, his sons Isaac and Ishmael, the Jews and the Arabs, the centuries-long strife between them, and God offering salvation to both sides, but the core of the story is showing that spirit triumphs over genetics through the journey of Selene's character.

Just a great little film with a lot of cool and unexpected surprises.

 

[John Crichton]

Okay Kai, you have officially read way farther into the film than I have. I don't think the movie is as deep as you are making it out to be but you do make some convincing points. I also don't think it deserves the "great" adjective but it's all good.

On another note: Did anyone else catch the cousin comment made by Kraven to Lucian in their last scene together? I'll go with the biblical bent and say that it reminded me a tad of Kain and Abel, not that they were brothers but one did slay the other who was pure and dutiful.

 

[Kai Lord]

Okay Kai, you have officially read way farther into the film than I have. I don't think the movie is as deep as you are making it out to be but you do make some convincing points. I also don't think it deserves the "great" adjective but it's all good.

Oh, I don't mean "great" like LOTR or ESB great, but great as in "a great vampire movie" or what have you. Kraven alone is almost enough to take the entire film down a notch, but not quite. I enjoyed the story, loved the cinematography and action, and was totally smitten by Beckinsale. I'm enjoying my buzz, and stand by my opinion.

As for the film's depth, the Romeo and Juliet + werewolves and vampires + the Matrix is the face value Hollywood high concept, but spirit/character overcoming race/genetics is definitely the film's heart. The Isaac/Ishmael backstory I consider to be more of an easter egg, but its not exactly subtle.

 

[reapersaurus]

No, the story spent its time revealing Selene's growing feelings for Michael against the backdrop of her personal war against the Lycans.

The entire movie was about Selene's growth.

She went from reckless hatred toward all Lycans, to love for one Lycan, to tolerance/acceptance of all Lycans, though that last bit was mostly implied.

No, no, and no.

That is stunning how far someone can read into a movie with almost no shred of frame to support it, but you are certainly entitled to that cool analysis, and if it makes the movie better for you, than more power to you.

However, when commenting on the movie we are limited to what the director and editor chose to display in the scenes.

Very little movie time was spent on Michael/Selene relationship. That's fact.
There was a comparable amount of time spent on the Selene/Kraven relationship, and the Viktor/Selene relationship, but I wouldn't call them what the whole movie was 'about'.
I really don;t think there was one thing the movie was about, other than the Lycan/vampire war. THAT's what dominates all aspects of the movie in my eyes, even encompassing everything you said.

Selene didn't 'grow'. All she did as a character was to get a woody for a caring HUMAN, who ended up getting bitten by a Lycan while under her protection. She was only even in the same scene as Michael one time once he 'became' a Lycan. All the others, he was a human in the process of transforming, and she was continuing her protection of him.
Then she got revealed to her the true identity of who killed her family, and then she killed her sire for it. That's not growth. That's not transcending one's nature and character - that's just Revenge with a tinge of horniness for Michael (who just happens to be part Lycan) thrown in.

Your theory is dependant on Selene's acceptance of all Lycans, and that's not supported or implied in the film. She simply fell for a human. That's it. She was killing Lycans all the way thru to the end of the movie, unless you saw a different version than I did, with extended footage at the end. She even created the Abomination solely to save Michael's life (and likely to kill Viktor) - not for any greater purpose or transcendant reason.

So her character goes from:
a) Hating all Lycans (and many vampires).
to B) Being intrigued by a human she saw risking his life for someone else, and who's being hunted by the Lycans. You could easily conclude that her interest in Michael at this stage was more fueled by her distrust/fear/suspicion of the Lycan's motivations in hunting Michael than in any other reason.
c) Then Michael got bit, AND she started to question the past (seeing the locket on Lucian).
d) She continued to protect an infected human.
e) She defies tradition to expose the plots going on, and her suspicions from the past, Lucian being alive, etc. Still very soldier-like.
f) Michael gets taken, she goes in to kill Lycans and does so.
g) She's told about the past, bites a dying Michael, and kills her sire for killing her family.

end of movie.
Where's the growth there? I've seen more growth on an apple I set out overnight. Learning about plot reveals is NOT character development. That's story development.
This movie was all about the story, and just used the characters as chess pieces to put their war-story in action. I dig that.
In fact, I can't think of one character that even had a change of approach, or world-change in the movie. Every character stayed exactly the same - ahha! Except for the blonde who simply switched sides, from Kraven to Selene, after she realized she wouldn't ever be Kraven's Queen.

About Selene's "love" of Michael - where exactly was that established in the film? Because other than the blonde saying (prematurely) that she liked him from looking at a picture, and then Kraven politically painting her as a Lycan sympathetic that liked (loved?) Michael, I seriously can't remember many parts that effectively established Selene's "love" of Michael. She was protecting an innocent from the Lycans. That's not love. She didn't kill him when he was infected. She kissed him when she left him in the 'safe house'. If it wasn't for her easily-missed reaction as she closed the door on that scene, I daresay that one could make a case that she simply used Michael as a weapon in the War.
There's just as much substance on screen to conclude that (I'd wager there's more frames which support that radical of view than support your idea, Kai).

Other than the film being billed as a "Romeo & Juliet" between vampires and werewolves (which is simply MARKETING) I really don't remember seeing it onscreen.

Anyone help jog my memory? - I easily may have missed some.

 

[Kai Lord]

However, when commenting on the movie we are limited to what the director and editor chose to display in the scenes.

No. Not at all. Every single movie ever made requires the viewer to connect the dots between what is shown on screen and what isn't. Hell the very medium of film demands this. The whole phenonemon of movement on screen is simply an illusion created by your eyes to fill the gaps between the frames, and so it is with the story as well.

A film narrative is shorthand, and in some cases even poetry. You don't just take what's on screen, or do characters wink out of existence when they leave frame? Or does nobody ever go to the bathroom? How come when a movie character gets a ticket to another country the next shot is always a 747 landing on a runway? The actual flight never took place because they didn't show it?

Selene didn't 'grow'. All she did as a character was to get a woody for a caring HUMAN, who ended up getting bitten by a Lycan while under her protection. She was only even in the same scene as Michael one time once he 'became' a Lycan. All the others, he was a human in the process of transforming, and she was continuing her protection of him.
Then she got revealed to her the true identity of who killed her family, and then she killed her sire for it. That's not growth. That's not transcending one's nature and character - that's just Revenge with a tinge of horniness for Michael (who just happens to be part Lycan) thrown in.

Your theory is dependant on Selene's acceptance of all Lycans, and that's not supported or implied in the film. She simply fell for a human. That's it. She was killing Lycans all the way thru to the end of the movie, unless you saw a different version than I did, with extended footage at the end.

Yes, the version I saw did have some extra footage at the end, because Selene didn't "kill Lycans all the way thru to the end of the movie." The version I saw ended with her saving a Lycan. Not killing. Saving.

In the beginning of the movie she hated Lycans. All of them. At the end she didn't hate all of them. She loved one of them, and by her reaction to Lucian's advice "Bite him" we know she trusted at least one other one, and her narration at the beginning "We got good at killing them, almost too good" IMPLIES that she was recollecting on a conviction to kill that she would later come to believe was in error.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that because Selene went from beginning of the story to the end with the desire to avenge her family's murder that she didn't grow. No, its called "character motivation."

She even created the Abomination solely to save Michael's life (and likely to kill Viktor) - not for any greater purpose or transcendant reason.

She bit (and saved) Michael because she loved him. If you didn't at least get that from the movie then I don't know what else to say.

So her character goes from:
a) Hating all Lycans (and many vampires).
g) She's told about the past, bites a dying Michael, and kills her sire for killing her family.

Yes, hating all Lycans to loving a Lycan. Thank you. Of course she's going to kill the person who murdered her family. Not much of a narrative if there isn't a conflict to overcome.

As for other signs of her feelings for Michael, she kissed him when she untied him at the end and it was all over her face while he laid dying in front of her. It wasn't as blatant as "I truly...deeply...love you" but come on it was what the entire story revolved around. Her relationship with Michael was an echo of Lucian's relationship with his murdered lover. Her years of hate prevented her from just throwing herself at Michael but again, if you didn't see it then I really don't know what else to say.

 

[reapersaurus]

I can sum up our different approaches to the film very simply, Kai Lord:

You prefer to see Underworld as a love story, and I prefer to view it as a war story.

 

[Kai Lord]

I can sum up our different approaches to the film very simply, Kai Lord:

You prefer to see Underworld as a love story, and I prefer to view it as a war story.

Nah, I'd call it an action movie, though I do consider Selene's feelings for Michael a big part of what makes her character interesting.

I was just liked Selene more, while you preferred the Abomination. Agreed?

 

[paulewaug]

Just to chime in here with a little support for Kai Lord and Underworld both!

Personally my feelings about the movie are very similar to Kai Lord's and I commend him for holding his ground and doing a nice job of explaining his view.

I enjoyed the movie very much, I was glad to see it
was Not "Romeo&Juliet + Vampires&Werewolves"

I thought they did a nice job of putting across some subtle points of what was going on and how "looking into the past was forbidden" (and of course we see why it is shown what Viktor was up too)
Much of what I could say about the movie had been pretty well covered by Kai Lord. And seeing as how this thread originally was not a review thread I won't weigh in too much on the subject.

I will add that I felt part of the growing change of the movie included a passing on of heritage from Lucian to Michael and Selene. Michael's receiving Lucien’s memories and learning the truth as well as Selene learning the truth about the Vamps and Lycans.
She had been under the deception, as had most all of the vamps, that the Lycans started the war, when as we see that was not the case.
Also their was very much a love story subtext to the overall action war conflict going on. The original love between Viktor’s daughter and Lucian, and then of course between Selene and Michael.
Granted Selene and Michael Both had a lot going on so they never just lock up and get funky, but you can see a connection made between the 2 of them right at the very beginning before the conflict even starts.
A connection is definitely made when they first lock eyes with each other, and then they move on.

Now just because Selene was so busy getting caught up in the war and the conspiracy that she didn't recognize her feelings for Michael doesn't mean that (the blond vampire) was incorrect in her assertion of Selene liking Michael.

Evidenced by Michael showing up at the gate later and Selene's reaction, she leaves with the knowledge that she may never come back and takes him to the safest place she knows of.
She gives him the gun with the silver-whatsit bullets, and doesn't say "Do your self a favor and end it before you change" She says "One bullet should be enough to stall off the transformation for a while." (or something like that)
And also warns him that when he changes he Will kill, regardless of what he wants, so she "locks him up."

If all she wanted was to keep him away from the Lycans she would likely just have killed him, it was only the fact she was falling in love that stopped her from it.

Michael Not perusing Selene is the exact thing he needed to do to get the girl (contrary to most movies would have us believe)
Her interest level in him went up and up, where as Kraven was tiresome.

Now to get back OnTopic a bit:

Yes we Do see that Vamps are unnaturally strong and tough, evidence of them being tough is that Normal bullets don't really do the trick it was only when the Lycans get the blue bullets that they become a real threat in the firearms department.
Also it is indicated that Vamps can transform others at will and those that are warriors are dangerous but need to use weapons whereas the Lycans, when
they change, are physically more dangerous.

It is also shown they are both Very fast, and i would figure their speeds a match for each other as the vamps dodge gunfire pretty well (but not "Neo style" thank God I say this because of the fact they were dark coats and clothes and lots of gunfire of course brings up the matrix comparisons, personally I enjoyed this more. But that is just IMO)

They do evidence regenerative powers, by Selene's very nasty wound going away after she rests, and yes it is shown that the vampires, at least While Active, are alive.
But it also looks like they are Undead to a degree as well. Because for all intents and purpose Marcus and Viktor are Dead. No physical Or Mental activity while they are down.
The blood brings them "Back to Life" allowing them to think and move around.
I though this was cool and made them more interesting.

Now we don't know for sure that lycans are Immortal because Lucien is the Oldest around I'm pretty sure, and we know he is not as old as Viktor, but the fact that he is still around is evidence that they are, at the very least, extremely long lived.

I thought it was cool how Michael as a Hybrid was super monster but not able to just totally tear up Viktor. For a minute I was disappointed because it looked like he would make short work of him, he certainly did appear to be faster, but Viktor's experience proved and edge.

I like that Selene was able to sort of catch him off guard to finish the battle.
Although it would have been ok if the fight lasted longer


It was funny because I seem to recall something mentioned about "an end to the conflict" and I was thinking "well that would suck wouldn't it?! Where is the fun in that?!" he he
Why have monsters with cool powers if they can't beat the heck out of each other?!