Unearthed Arcana Unearthed Arcana: "Greyhawk" Initiative

The latest Unearthed Arcana by WotCs Mearls is up. "Mike Mearls introduces an alternative initiative system, inspired by AD&D and the journey to Lake Geneva, Wisconsin—the birthplace of D&D—for Gary Con 2017. While the initiative rules in fifth edition D&D are great for keeping the action moving and being easy to use at the table, the Greyhawk initiative variant takes a different approach. These rules add complexity, but with the goal of introducing more drama to combat."

The latest Unearthed Arcana by WotCs Mearls is up. "Mike Mearls introduces an alternative initiative system, inspired by AD&D and the journey to Lake Geneva, Wisconsin—the birthplace of D&D—for Gary Con 2017. While the initiative rules in fifth edition D&D are great for keeping the action moving and being easy to use at the table, the Greyhawk initiative variant takes a different approach. These rules add complexity, but with the goal of introducing more drama to combat."

He's calling it "Greyhawk Initiative". It'll be interesting to compare this to how we interpreted his earlier version of alternative initiative.

Mearls also talks about it in this video.


[video=youtube;hfSo4wVkwUw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfSo4wVkwUw[/video]


 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
Agreed. If I were using this system, I'd flip it around: ranged attacks d8, melee attacks d4, movement d6. Ranged attacks would still beat "move + melee" 62% of the time (and tie 9% of the time, losing only 27% of the time); but if you're already in melee, melee would beat ranged 69% of the time (and tie 12% of the time, losing only 19% of the time). That seems plausible.

Oh, another thought, under this system, we might do away with Dash and not worry so much about charging...

If you move less than half your speed, roll d3. Move up to your full speed, d3+3. Move up to double your speed (instead of Dashing consuming your action), d6+6. On the theory that no matter how quickly you act/react, it still takes actual time to move, and your speed dictates that.
 

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maceochaid

Explorer
That's been discussed in other places - using the damage dice as the initiative roll.

I like it aesthetically. It would be very 2E, because Weapon Speed was all about 'why does that dude with the 12' pike act before the dude with a dagger'?

It would make martials declare actions with far more detail than a spellcaster though. Unless spellcasters did the variant of 'spell level + some size of dice', which would also bring back a HUGE amount of old school feel. More powerful spells were almost always longer to cast (Power Word Kill was a notable exception) and spell interruption was so painful back then...

I saw that, but this would also allow a Rapier to be faster than a long sword, and a scimitar faster than a mace, so their might be some more verisimilitude. which is why I like it, but how does it effect balance in other ways?
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
In the system's defense, I believe it is supposed to allow ranged attackers to attack before opponents close with them and engage.
Might make sense if there were not a die rolled for movement.

Maybe movement should be a larger die and melee a smaller one?

Or, if you're using the weapon die for the modifier, melee should be movement (if any) + weapon die and ranged d4 + weapon die.

Since that'd make all weapons slower, spellcasting could add spell level or slot level.


At the risk of making the system more fiddly, I would impose a higher initiative dice to making a ranged attack in melee. Perhaps granting an opportunity attack for attempting to do so? Maybe even have a successful opportunity attack disrupt the action entirely?
Opportunity Attack for attacking at range or casting in melee certainly sounds good, to me. ;) In the AD&Dism of this variant, merely 'winning initiative' could also allow interruption, I suppose (though the variant spell disruption sidebar is very forgiving, as is, for that matter, not having to declare which spell you're casting beforehand).


The problem is that you are not selecting the specific spell in the declaration phase, so you can't add to the initiative dice when rolling.
Yeah, you should have to declare the spell you'll be casting - oh, or just the slot you'll be using (you have to 'gather the power,' perhaps?) - when you roll initiative.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Ugh. Just ugh. I hate how you need to declare at the beginning of a round what you do, and that it also penalizes you for using all of your actions (action, bonus and move).

EDIT: I've been corrected that the example does show you can lose an action. Which is screwed up and would change my character selection to only play ranged, preferably casters.
 
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Gadget

Adventurer
Ugh. Just ugh. I hate how you need to declare at the beginning of a round what you do, and that it also penalizes you for using all of your actions (action, bonus and move).

The sugar-coated example doesn't include anything where an action is invalided due to circumstances earlier in the round and they want to take another action. Do you just lose you action? Which is screwed up and would change my character selection to only play ranged, preferably casters. Or do you follow the rules under "Changing another's action" in which case make it a general rule instead of hiding it under another subsection.

Evidently you missed this bit:

"Rath (7) has no enemies with in reach. His player makes a point of asking the DM if optional rules taken from a web site of dubious repute are really what the campaign needs, but the character can still do nothing on his turn. The DM reminds all the players that they can always roll an initiative die to move in case they end up needing to do so during a round—though they increase the chance of acting later in the round if they do so."

The system definitely has some rough edges, but a lot of benefits to make things more exciting as well.
 

Staffan

Legend
The sugar-coated example doesn't include anything where an action is invalided due to circumstances earlier in the round and they want to take another action. Do you just lose you action?
Yes, it does, in round 2. I already quoted it because it's awesome prose, but I'll do it again: "Rath (7) has no enemies within reach. His player makes a point of asking the DM if optional rules taken from a website of dubious repute are really what the campaign needs, but the character can still do nothing on his turn."

But it does bring up a point, that others have already touched upon: ranged attacks are doubly rewarded under this system, with both a smaller initiative die and generally not needing to move. By contrast, a melee character ought to combine their attack with a move, just in case everyone nearby runs away. So, maybe like this instead:

Melee, light weapon: d4
Melee, regular weapon: d6
Melee, heavy weapon: d8
Ranged, regular weapon: d10
Ranged, weapon with Loading: d12
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Okay, so I'm near one injured opponent, and there are other opponents 5 feet further away. I have Great Weapon Mastery.

I want to attack, and IF I kill them, move up to the next foe and use the bonus action attack I get from GWM.

Do I need to roll a 2d8+d6 initiative (attack + bonus action attack + movement)?
Do I need to roll d8+d6 (attack + movement), but because I didn't have that bonus action when initiative was declared I couldn't roll for it, but I instead later roll it and add it on.
Do I roll just a d8 (attack), and if I have future options that opened up because I have now been granted a bonus action I can declare them (and the movement) at that point.

Are you allowed to declare things you don't know you'll be able to do (like the GWM bonus attack). If so, can I just declare "ranged or melee attack" and roll d4+d8 and chose which action I do then.

Hey, if I have two attacks and I throw a dagger and stab with another, do I roll just d4 (like I'd do if I threw 2 daggers), just d8 (as if I stabbed two daggers) or d4+d8 even though it's just one action? As a side note, no matter what you answer, I can argue it's wrong. The initiative system and 5e interact so poorly there is no right answer.

I really feel like this system might work with a game designed for it, but there are so many cases for 5e that it handle intuitively that it's just a train wreck trying to bolt it on after-the-fact.
 

Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
Hmmm...it would be interesting to hear from folks who actually used the system in action at GaryCon.

As you can see, this system has two big effects on combat. It makes on-the-fly actions (such as attempting to stop the fleeing hobgoblins) more uncertain. It also turns each round of combat into a miniature tactical scenario, with the players conferring about their goals for the round and their general plan of attack.

I think the article elides over the biggest effect on combat -- at a table where players will appreciate having each round be more of a tactical challenge, this system will drastically increase the time to run combats, as players hash out what their optimal strategies should be. With experience and DM prodding, perhaps this extra combat time can be minimized ("let's just use Maneuver E"), but I'm not seeing it.

The standard initiative system was designed as a 'stop messing around and just take your turn' system, and I can see where having players declare types of actions at the start of the round rather than waiting until the character's turn might help 'analysis paralysis', but in reality, I think the paralysis will just be relocated from the player's turn to the start of the round, and magnified if other players disagree with the chosen tactics.

The biggest hazard under this system is ending up in a situation where you cannot take a useful action. So when in doubt, roll a die to give yourself the option to move. In most cases, acting a little later in the round is a fair trade for the security of knowing you can close with a foe if you need to.

The manner in which actions are declared is generic enough so that it seems unlikely, barring some weird combination of effects, that you'd actually be deprived of a useful action in a round, and even then, it'll be because your allies took care of a threat that you expected to have to deal with, so I'd say that problem is not a big as suggested.

I think the true biggest hazard is the loss of the Ready action and the tactical options that closes -- for instance, imagine if, instead of appearing in a dungeon corridor, the monsters in the example were stationed behind a fortified portal (not unlike one found in the D-series manned by drow, as long as we're doing callbacks). Not only can the hobgoblins make ranged attacks, they can do so by moving in and out of cover at whim, making them impervious to counter-attack. Trying to 'interrupt' their action by delaying doesn't work, since doing this allows the action *before* the hobgoblins get their turn (and are thus still safely hidden behind the fortifications), and waiting until after the hobgoblins take their turn means exactly the same thing -- the creatures cannot be effectively targeted until the fortification is breached, which not every member of the party may be equally capable of attempting.

This is far from the only tactical situation in which the loss of the Ready action means that one side in an encounter is placed at an extreme disadvantage -- it would be up to the DM to identify these situations and attempt to avoid them in order to not antagonize her players too much.

Also, did anybody else notice that in round 4, Rupert was able to ready a shield and still attack, despite the rule on donning armor and shields requiring an action to do so?

Having to create a plan with your fellow players to work together and defeat your enemies means that coordination is critical. As such, you must weigh the benefits and risks of each action you might take in a round. As seen in the example above, healing in combat can easily become a risky proposition. One bad roll can be the difference between delivering a spell in time or seeing an ally fall under your enemies’ attacks.

Coordination sounds like a solid goal, but that's not really the game that the designers have put forward here -- 5th Edition D&D is more a game where any individual character likely has the power to change the entire tempo of the encounter with the right action taken at the right time, rest of the party be danged. The tables who will appreciate the option will pay for their entertainment with less actual adventuring accomplished in the same amount of table-time.

If the DM and players really want a game in which weighing "the benefits and risks of each action" are needed to mitigate the risks inherent in combat, maybe they should just be playing Hackmaster instead?

--
Pauper
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Evidently you missed this bit:

"Rath (7) has no enemies with in reach. His player makes a point of asking the DM if optional rules taken from a web site of dubious repute are really what the campaign needs, but the character can still do nothing on his turn. The DM reminds all the players that they can always roll an initiative die to move in case they end up needing to do so during a round—though they increase the chance of acting later in the round if they do so."

The system definitely has some rough edges, but a lot of benefits to make things more exciting as well.

Thank you, I did miss that. Okay, now I can definitively say I would not run this, and would tell a DM I would not play at a table with it. Action economy in 5e is already a big thing, having random actions stolen, and not even evenly but more for certain types of character like melee, is a big step backwards. That's a showstopper that wouldn't let me appreciate what it does bring.
 

ad_hoc

(they/them)
I really feel like this system might work with a game designed for it, but there are so many cases for 5e that it handle intuitively that it's just a train wreck trying to bolt it on after-the-fact.

While it would have been nice to have it at the start, my table loves it and won't be going back to the default system.

So there's that. 5e is built on a simple stable system with a lot of optional rules available. Use what you want to use, don't use what you don't want to use. Sometimes those rules aren't going to work for certain tables or will interact poorly with each other. I think the multiclassing rules are bad and unecessary so I don't use them. Others think they are required.
 

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