Unearthed Arcana Unearthed Arcana: "Greyhawk" Initiative

The latest Unearthed Arcana by WotCs Mearls is up. "Mike Mearls introduces an alternative initiative system, inspired by AD&D and the journey to Lake Geneva, Wisconsin—the birthplace of D&D—for Gary Con 2017. While the initiative rules in fifth edition D&D are great for keeping the action moving and being easy to use at the table, the Greyhawk initiative variant takes a different approach. These rules add complexity, but with the goal of introducing more drama to combat."

The latest Unearthed Arcana by WotCs Mearls is up. "Mike Mearls introduces an alternative initiative system, inspired by AD&D and the journey to Lake Geneva, Wisconsin—the birthplace of D&D—for Gary Con 2017. While the initiative rules in fifth edition D&D are great for keeping the action moving and being easy to use at the table, the Greyhawk initiative variant takes a different approach. These rules add complexity, but with the goal of introducing more drama to combat."

He's calling it "Greyhawk Initiative". It'll be interesting to compare this to how we interpreted his earlier version of alternative initiative.

Mearls also talks about it in this video.


[video=youtube;hfSo4wVkwUw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfSo4wVkwUw[/video]


 

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Coroc

Hero
Swim in plate??? I've a hard time seeing that work, unless the armour is made of modern lightweight materials (and even then it's a stretch) as opposed to steel and iron.

And didn't knights in armour need assistance from a squire and-or stairs or a stepladder to mount a horse?

Lanefan

You did read right. wait I got a link here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzTwBQniLSc

I did only find a vid of samurai armor swimming on the quick search, but plate armor is less cumbersome than samurai armor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLcT5J7yg9k

To get yourself really well educated on any topic of historic martial arts

I highly recommend https://www.youtube.com/user/scholagladiatoria/videos

This guy knows it all about swords and most about any other historic weapon

The armor you needed a crane for was tourney armor, so stiff that you could not even turn your head to the side.
Probably they used it to protect extra important persons like a king in the case he had to participate in a tourney.

These armors are special purpose only never used in a war (But you tend to see them more often than the stuff they actually used in wars when you go to any historic exhibition because this stuff did not wear as much and more often was decorated than the plain stuff used in actual wars)
 

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Staffan

Legend
You did read right. wait I got a link here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzTwBQniLSc

I did only find a vid of samurai armor swimming on the quick search, but plate armor is less cumbersome than samurai armor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLcT5J7yg9k
I don't have a problem with having a full range of movement in well-made plate armor. The problem is the approximately 20 kg of steel you're carrying, which would make you sink like a rock. I checked a diving site, and they said that a diver needs to carry about 6-10% of their body weight to become "neutrally" buoyant. 20 kg of plate is more like 25%.
 

Coroc

Hero
I don't have a problem with having a full range of movement in well-made plate armor. The problem is the approximately 20 kg of steel you're carrying, which would make you sink like a rock. I checked a diving site, and they said that a diver needs to carry about 6-10% of their body weight to become "neutrally" buoyant. 20 kg of plate is more like 25%.

Still your chances to drown in soaked padded armor are higher, I did not mean to say you can swim like in a bath dress but you can do short distances

That buoyant thing I believe refers to not moving, like divers using weights to faster dive down. If you lie flat on your back (I think its more difficult for some people than others, despite being an extraordinary swimmer I never managed to be good at that trick) and play "dead man" you are buoyant, without much or no movement. It works far better in saltwater and in the dead sea in Israel it is easy as pie bec. of the high salt concentration there.

The first thing u learn as a lifeguard is get rid of your / the victims clothes if possible. When they soak it is easy several kilos at the wrong places of your body your arms and legs.
 
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Coroc

Hero
I don't have a problem with having a full range of movement in well-made plate armor. The problem is the approximately 20 kg of steel you're carrying, which would make you sink like a rock. I checked a diving site, and they said that a diver needs to carry about 6-10% of their body weight to become "neutrally" buoyant. 20 kg of plate is more like 25%.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4tTUXdK7-0 this is an excellent series of real jobs in several periods (check the channel for more)

and I have seen another video wit this guy where he does all sorts of tricks in plate armor I cannot swear that he was also swimming or just telling that its possible I try to find it. Despite this guy being approx. my age or older he is quite sportive and does all sorts of stunts himself.
 


G

Guest 6801328

Guest
Still your chances to drown in soaked padded armor are higher, I did not mean to say you can swim like in a bath dress but you can do short distances

...

The first thing u learn as a lifeguard is get rid of your / the victims clothes if possible. When they soak it is easy several kilos at the wrong places of your body your arms and legs.

I'm skeptical.

Sure, padded armor absorbing water is going to reduce your mobility, but at least the extra weight is going to be...water. So the same specific gravity as the stuff you're floating in.

I know with certainty I couldn't swim 5' with a 45 pound weightlifting plate attached to me, even if it didn't reduce my mobility at all. Again, it's not just the mass it's also the specific gravity.

If people still wore armor I'm 100% certain lifeguards would be told: "first remove the armor, then the clothes".
 

Coroc

Hero
The people in the middle ages at least the fighting men were far stronger than average people nowadays. I did not say you would break the world record in 100m free style with armor but you surely could cross a moat or such. The problem with soaked clothes is that it hampers your movement and your movement keeps you above water. the armor does not soak, well maybe your clothes underneath, but it would be only some layers of linen whereas padded armor might be as many as 15 layers of linen. Do you know those linen shirts they sell on medieval market fares? imagine 15 of them soaked in water, must be like a wet featherbed as a cloak.
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
The people in the middle ages at least the fighting men were far stronger than average people nowadays. I did not say you would break the world record in 100m free style with armor but you surely could cross a moat or such. The problem with soaked clothes is that it hampers your movement and your movement keeps you above water. the armor does not soak, well maybe your clothes underneath, but it would be only some layers of linen whereas padded armor might be as many as 15 layers of linen. Do you know those linen shirts they sell on medieval market fares? imagine 15 of them soaked in water, must be like a wet featherbed as a cloak.

I don't think it's a matter of strength. You use strength/endurance to overcome drag while moving laterally. Floating by itself is nearly effortless by comparison. It's really two different things, and I don't think the kind of strength used in the former to overcome 45 pounds of dense mass (iron/steel) pulling you straight down. At least, not for very long.

This is just conjecture on my part. I certainly haven't conducted experiments on this. But I'd want to see a movie of somebody swimming in metal armor to believe it.
 

Took a while to catch up in this thread in order to post my 2 cents worth.....

I am the type of player and especially the type of GM that detests nonsensical outcomes. I have played with players that think you can convince a random noble to sell his family into slavery, hand over their entire fortune to you and run naked thru the streets if you can roll 3 nat 20's persuasion checks in a row.

That is why I am liking where this system is going. Don't get me wrong, it is going to be a hell of a lot of work for the GM in large combat, probably requiring software tools to do effectively. But for players, same number of rolls with more dice, and the tiniest bit of arithmetic is not a lot to ask. Everything else is them being too afraid of what they will loose.

The example mentioned earlier about the initiative cost of having to move and heal (2 dice) being unlikely to save a party member from being merely stabbed by a stationary enemy (1 die.... hehe) is clearly one of those cases. To think there is any chance that a player can "walk 5 feet, climb a 5 foot wall, leap over a table, use my action to dash 30 feet, then cast a spell using metamagic as a reaction" before the enemy can "poke them with my dagger again" is, in any reasonable analysis, preposterous.

I agree that it does put a focus on more tactical type combat, and having a diagram or physical representation of the battle will probably help speed up decision making a lot. One example of a way this will go down well that I like would be as follows: I chose to stay right here and guard this spot. My enemy closes and attacks me. If the enemy does manage to win initiative (with a bit of luck on the multiple rolls) then they successfully hit me first. If, given that I have done nothing this round except prepare for the attack and have had plenty of time to have my weapon and armour in the optimum position (thus giving me the advantage of only rolling 1 die) I do win initiative, then I hold my action until the enemy closes, but then strike first because I am set and ready for the attack. The third possibility is that the enemy chooses not to attack me. Then of course if there is nobody near me to strike the attack is wasted, but that is the sacrifice you make for the initiative advantage.

One new idea that just popped into my head as I write this excessively long post (sorry........) simplifies it a lot: If you want an unrestricted turn where you can do whatever you want when your turn comes around, roll d20. If you forgo movement, as in you resolve to stay put and defend that spot, you roll a d12. If your only objective is to get the hell out of there, you may roll a d8 and your only options in the round are dodge <EDIT: meant Disengage> or dash--and offensive bonus actions/reactions are no longer an option in that round.
 
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Feedback from last night was that this system punishes mobile characters (Rogues in particular) too much, though it didn't reallty come with an explanation of why. I don't see it myself. We'll try again next week, and come to some conclusions then. I think I might ask for a written submission from players.

Has anyone tried this in a game where PCs have mobility (Swashbicklers Rogues, mobility feat, Monks, etc)?

If you want an unrestricted turn where you can do whatever you want when your turn comes around, roll d20. If you forgo movement, as in you resolve to stay put and defend that spot, you roll a d12. If your only objective is to get the hell out of there, you may roll a d8 and your only options in the round are dodge or dash--and offensive bonus actions/reactions are no longer an option in that round.

I really like that!

I'd perhaps complicate it a bit further by saying that if you have something that normally improves your initiative (like UA Ranger or Rogue Swashbukler) then you make the roll at Advantage.

Or, if you really like the addition of DEX or INT modifier, reverse the dice (d20 for move only, d8 for unrestricted), and have highest goes first.
 

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