Unfair Character Death?

[The Thayan Menace]

Not My Mistake

Horrible tentacles that just appear out of nowhere would strike me as being magical in nature!

What really surprised me is that he is a veteran player (and DM) who honestly believed that these effects represented non-specific "evil magic" and not a trap.

What he should have known is that all hostile spell wards have trap DCs; most of them are listed in the DMG.

I just can't convince him to see reason.

 

[The Thayan Menace]

Skill Checks

Did you let your players know - after rolling Spot and Listen checks for the party, perhaps - that they neither saw nor heard anyone casting a spell nearby? Did the party wizard / arcanist get a Spellcraft or Knowledge (Arcana) check to recognize that this particular effect wasn't the result of an immediately-cast spell?

There was absolutely no hint of spellcasting in the immediate vicinity and none of the players attempted to ascertain if there was.

A Spellcraft roll could have determined the nature of the spell, but not necessarily if it was cast or triggered by a trap.

 

[the Jester]

*shrug* Tell him to get over it. Sounds like he's just being difficult at this point.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

There was absoulutely no hint of spellcasting in the immediate vicinity and none of the players attempted to ascertain if there was.

Spot and Listen are reactive skills - the players don't necessarily need to say that they're employing them. Did you at least mention it?

I mean, if I was DMing a trap-laden dungeon, and my players walked into not one, not two, but three traps, I'd throw a little bone their way. "Guys - remember all the rumors you heard about how Garmille the Mad loves his devious magical traps?"

A Spellcraft roll could have determined the nature of the spell, but not necessarily if it was cast or triggered by a trap.

20 + spell level: Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry.

Arcana (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, constructs, dragons, magical beasts)

Wizard player rolls Spellcraft and beats DC 24.

"Well, Bob, you recognize the spell in front of you as a variation on the Grasping Limbs of Varch spell your master's used before. For some reason, though, the magic that summoned it seems to be ... old. Make a Knowledge (Arcana) check. Yeah, it's a little frayed at the edges - you remember that spells that are set as wards tend to deteriorate with time."

Hell, fudge a Spot check and tell the most observant character (the one with the best Spot bonus) that, just as the tentacles are coming into being, he notices a series of runes on the floor - near Bob's feet - flare briefly and then disappear. After the spell ends, a Search check will reveal the remains of the magical trap.

In short, it's easy as pie for a DM to beat the crap out of their players' characters. It's very easy, afterwards, to blame it on the players playing stupid - sometimes, it's even true. However, that doesn't mean a gentle nudge by the DM in the right direction can't result in the players figuring out the wizard's traps - like, say, calling for the rogue's player to make an Int or Wis check and feeding him a bit of information.

 

[The Thayan Menace]

Specifics

Spot and Listen are reactive skills - the players don't necessarily need to say that they're employing them. Did you at least mention it?

No ... but I generally do not have my players make those rolls if there is nothing to see or hear.

I mean, if I was DMing a trap-laden dungeon, and my players walked into not one, not two, but three traps, I'd throw a little bone their way. "Guys - remember all the rumors you heard about how Garmille the Mad loves his devious magical traps?"

The PCs were in a completely unfamiliar environment (i.e., in a rickety fortress strapped to the back of an extraplanar beast) where any such hints would have been out of place. Besides, I figured suffering two such traps would have been an adequate hint.

Wizard player rolls Spellcraft and beats DC 24.

"Well, Bob, you recognize the spell in front of you as a variation on the Grasping Limbs of Varch spell your master's used before. For some reason, though, the magic that summoned it seems to be ... old. Make a Knowledge (Arcana) check. Yeah, it's a little frayed at the edges - you remember that spells that are set as wards tend to deteriorate with time."

I like this; however, the wards were not old. Besides, a Spellcraft roll cannot immediately distinguish between a magical trap and a spell that has been metamagicked with silent and still effects. In any event, no one in the party bothered to investigate what had happened anyway.

Hell, fudge a Spot check and tell the most observant character (the one with the best Spot bonus) that, just as the tentacles are coming into being, he notices a series of runes on the floor - near Bob's feet - flare briefly and then disappear. After the spell ends, a Search check will reveal the remains of the magical trap.

Although I like this idea, there is no specific dynamic for using Spot to notice magical trap runes as they go off. Furthermore, no one in the party bothered to use Search in the trap locations at all.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Alright, fine, you did everything in your power possible to make sure the players didn't run blindly into things, they were just playing stupid, and you're completely correct.

Did you come here asking for advice or for pats on the back? I mean, sheesh.

Besides, I figured suffering two such traps would have been an adequate hint.

And, yet, obviously, it wasn't.

Although I like this idea, there is no specific dynamic for using Spot to notice magical trap runes as they go off.

Yes, there is. It's called the Spot skill.

Action: Varies. Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner you can make a Spot check without using an action.

What's the DC to Spot a brief flare of light? Pick one.

 

[The Thayan Menace]

Yes Morpheus

Did you come here asking for advice or for pats on the back? I mean, sheesh.

You're right and you have some excellent points (which I do appreciate, by the way); maybe I am being a bit of megalomaniac.

Still, I find it hard to believe that this player could mistake an Evard's Black Tentacles effect that came out of nowhere for anything but a magical trap.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

You're right and you have some excellent points; maybe I am being a bit of megalomaniac.

I apologize for being snippy. I meant to include a winky-smiley on the last to let you know I wasn't being completely serious!

I've just had a tendency to run into DMs who say, "Why didn't you guys do X? It's completely obvious!" Of course, it's completely obvious to them because they created the adventure (or have the printed adventure in front of them), but there was some element in their descriptions to the players or in the way something was set up that kept it from being blindingly obvious to us.

I've always found that, instead of the DM secretly stewing until the end of the adventure, wondering what the heck we were thinking, it's better to provide a couple extra hints - and, in so doing, reward players who spent their skill points appropriately.

Still, I find it hard to believe that this player could mistake an Evard's Black Tentacles effect that came out of nowhere for anything but a magical trap.

Well, as you said, they're exploring "a rickety fortress strapped to the back of an extraplanar beast." I'd say that's a pretty good explanation for weird effects which just kind of appear out of nowhere. Were your players absolutely certain that it was an EBT spell and not some weirdstuff related to the beast? Or the plane through which they were traveling?

 

[The Thayan Menace]

Blame

I've always found that, instead of the DM secretly stewing until the end of the adventure, wondering what the heck we were thinking, it's better to provide a couple extra hints - and, in so doing, reward players who spent their skill points appropriately.

Good point.

Well, as you said, they're exploring "a rickety fortress strapped to the back of an extraplanar beast." I'd say that's a pretty good explanation for weird effects which just kind of appear out of nowhere. Were your players absolutely certain that it was an EBT spell and not some weirdstuff related to the beast? Or the plane through which they were traveling?

First, they were on the Prime. Second, they did not bother to investigate these effects. Now I realize that giving them hints may have been helpful, but I do not believe that I committed some sort of gross error that led to the rogue's death.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

First, they were on the Prime. Second, they did not bother to investigate these effects.

Let me see if I can make that particular point more clearly.

If I'm adventuring in a "standard" dungeon, and a crossbow bolt shoots out of the wall and hits me, I'm pretty likely to suspect it's a mechanical trap. If the corridor in front of me fills with sheets of flame, I'm pretty likely to suspect a spellcaster or a magical trap. If snaky, magical tentacles burst from the floor, I'm pretty likely to suspect a spellcaster or a magical trap.

If I'm adventuring in a dungeon set inside a volcano, and a crossbow bolt shoots out of the wall and hits me, I'm pretty likely to suspect it's a mechanical trap. If the corridor in front of me fills with sheets of flame, I'm pretty likely to suspect that it's an effect of the volcano before I suspect a spell or a magical trap. If snaky, magical tentacles burst from the floor, I'm pretty likely to suspect a spellcaster or a magical trap - but I might also suspect a strange new creature, reaching incorporeally through the walls and manifesting only its arms.

If I'm adventuring in a dungeon set in a fortress atop an extraplanar beast as it wends its way across the Realms, and a crossbow bolt shoots out of the wall and hits me, I'm pretty likely to suspect it's a mechanical trap. I may, however, suspect that it's an illusionary wall, that there's an arcane archer-type with teleporting arrows around, or a similar, higher-magic explanation. If snaky, magical tentacles burst from the floor, I'm pretty likely to suspect that its the hairs from the beast's back, that the castle is magically ensorceled to try, at random, to grab those inside it, etc.

In other words, the more weirdstuff* the environment is, the more I'm likely to accept seemingly magical happenings as "normal," and not necessarily traps laid out by some other intelligence.

Now I realize that giving them hints may have been helpful, but I do not believe that I committed some sort of gross error that led to the rogue's death.

Well, if you're certain, then you're certain.

* - Oops! Sorry. Edited the swearword.