Unfair Character Death?

[DonTadow]

All spells that are wards have trap DCs; only certain magical items with trap-like effects do not (and even with these, I would be tempted to ad-hoc a trap DC).

I'm just trying to understand it from his point of view. So the PCs did not know for sure they set off a trap. Thus he had good reason to believe it was something else. What was the trigger for the trap, did it have any visual or auditory clues?

I've seen many posts like this where we dms come and complain about a player and his situation, but we only get one side of it. And we don't try to understand it from the player's point of view.

 

[The Thayan Menace]

Damn Those Pseudo-Invisible Casters!

It could have just as easily been by an invible [sic] caster or a scrying caster.

The party did not act like it was. Besides, a magical trap is a simpler explanation .... Frankly, I think you are going out of your way to stretch the facts here.

 

[gizmo33]

I'm sorry, but my character is actually in the frakin' world. It's painfully obvious to him that he got hit with a crossbow bolt halfway across the floor vs. all the way across the floor.

I disagree - IRL, if you were blind-sided, it would not be obvious from which direction the shot came were you to be stumbling around trying to pull a bolt out of your head.

And the analogy is misleading anyway. There is no clear visible effect between the source of the spell and it's result. You may be able to determine the point of origin of the spell effect - but I see no reason (except in special circumstances, like fireball, where the description warrants it) why you'd be able to determine, visually, the source of the CASTING of the spell.

PCs shouldn't need to pull their DMs' teeth in order to get basic information about the gameworld.

True - but the existance of a magic trap is not basic information (at least if you extrapolate from the core rules). If it's basic information, then why does it require a rogue to detect the presence of a magic trap? Doesn't sound that basic to me. And given that search checks require time for a given area, it's not a trivial and instant check like Spot is.

 

[The Thayan Menace]

Are You Certain?

So the PCs did not know for sure they set off a trap.

Is anything ever truly certain? Barring an invisible caster (which no one suspected anyway), what else could it have been? A magical trap is the simplest explanation ... everything else is paranoia and metagaming.

What was the trigger for the trap, did it have any visual or auditory clues?

Visual; in terms of the spell effects. There were also probably trace elements remaining, but none of the PCs attempted to look for them.

 

[DonTadow]

The party did not act like it was. Besides, a magical trap is a simpler explanation .... Frankly, I think you are going out of your way to stretch the facts here.

Aside from his asanine behavior, the player was obviously upset about something that is valid to him. I don't think you provided enough clues to the players to make a logical decision as to if it was a trap or invisible spell caster. They may have suspected a trap was set, but there was no clues to suggest. All you provided was a magical effect which could have been from invisible casters, an enchanted object, a trap, ethereal spells. ect

 

[Lord Pendragon]

As a DM, I am always willing to concede when I have done wrong.

Except you never do wrong?

Yeesh, this thread reminds me of good ol' DocMoriarty. Haven't seen him around in a while.

However, I will not take blame for something that is not my fault ... I refuse to be a scapegoat.

As a DM, I am always willing to concede when I have done wrong. However, I will not allow my gaming integrity (and group trust) to be assailed by those without cause ... period.

I don't mean this as an insult, but this kind of thinking strikes me as incredibly juvenile. I reacted to situations like this in high school. C'mon, man. "Gaming integrity"? It's a game. Integrity is a word for when you refuse to take a bribe at work. It's a word for refusing to accept welfare and going out and getting a job so you can stand on your own two feet. It's about not cheating on your SAT's, even when the test giver's back is turned.

Your "gaming integrity" strikes me as no more than inflexibility, either due to youth or some other reason I couldn't say. Let it go, man. It's only going to cause you problems.

In any case I've said my piece and don't want this to devolve, so I'll stop posting to this thread. I'm glad that you did work it out with the player.

 

[The Thayan Menace]

On Blame

Except you never do wrong?

I never claimed that; I just did not make a mistake this time.

I don't mean this as an insult, but this kind of thinking strikes me as incredibly juvenile.

No offense taken, but thank you for the amateur psychology.

C'mon, man. "Gaming integrity"? It's a game.

Yes it is just a game ... one that absorbs hours of our time. DM credibility is an important part of this process. If I earn the label of incompetent DM legitimately, then I will accept the consequences, but I will not be maligned without cause.

Your "gaming integrity" strikes me as no more than inflexibility, either due to youth or some other reason I couldn't say.

You are entitled to your opinion. However, I doubt that even you would simply cave to a player that was making unreasonable demands.

 

[radferth]

I don't get this thread, except maybe Crothian increasing his epic post #. Much of the discusion seems to be over whose "fault" the character death is. Why is anyone at fault? Dungeons are dangerous places. It is certainly posible to play "flawlessly" and still die from being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Sorry if your friend is overly put out by this incident; I have no idea what you and he are like, so I can't be of much help on that front. It is unfortunate that the player's lacking knowledge the character would have had may have contributed to the death, but thems the breaks sometimes. Personally, I try very hard to let the players know when their characters know something that they personally may not, but thats bonus. You can't hold a DM responsible for not intuiting what a player doesn't know. Now if you will excuse me, I have to go read 10 more pages of whether rules lite or rules heavy games are objectively better.

 

[The Thayan Menace]

Blue's Clues

I don't think you provided enough clues to the players to make a logical decision as to if it was a trap or invisible spell caster. They may have suspected a trap was set, but there was no clues to suggest. All you provided was a magical effect which could have been from invisible casters, an enchanted object, a trap, ethereal spells. ect

Black tentacles that appear from out of nowhere, without verbal cues or appearance of a mage, are not likely to come from an invisible caster.

And, like I already said, the party did not suspect an invisible caster.

All of your other explanations are stretching the truth to fit the facts.

A magical trap is the simplest explanation.

 

[reveal]

Black tentacles that appear from out of nowhere, without verbal cues or appearance of a mage, are not likely to come from an invisible caster.

Why not? Sure, a trap might be the simplest explanation, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have come from somewhere else. Just because everyone at the table sans the one player thought it was a trap doesn't mean that everyone should have thought it was a trap.