Unfair Character Death?

[billd91]

For the record, my player's argument rests on the following points:

1. He did not know that the Evard's Black Tentacles effects were magical traps. He did not feel that my description of the spell trigger informed him appropriately.

2. He told me that he believed the tentacles represented "evil magic" that he could not disable. Somehow, he wrongfully assumed that these wards could only be triggered and not disarmed.

Here's one of the things that gets me. He thought they were triggerable effects but not disarmable. So he doesn't try to disarm them. Does he even decide to look for them? Or, once found, he just decides to ride out the effects?
If he thought there was a trigger (other than an invisible, inaudible spellcaster with a line of sight and line of effect through some means) it seems to me that he has no leg to stand on in this argument. Just because something can't be disarmed (whether true or not) that doesn't mean it can't be avoided if properly found.

And the way I see it, "I could have described things better" isn't the same as "I made a mistake".

 

[The Thayan Menace]

Word (x5)

Here's one of the things that gets me. He thought they were triggerable effects but not disarmable. So he doesn't try to disarm them. Does he even decide to look for them? Or, once found, he just decides to ride out the effects?

He claims he never looked for them because he assumed he couldn't find them for some odd reason.

I strongly suspect that he wouldn't have looked for the trap that killed him anyway, regardless of his perspective on the tentacles, and he's just looking for excuses.

And the way I see it, "I could have described things better" isn't the same as "I made a mistake".

Agreed; and I'm glad I stood my ground.

 

[DonTadow]

Everyone except the rogue did know. While I acknowledge that I could have given a better description, my description was adequate enough.

I feel no obligation to beat a player over the head and say:

"You see those tentacles that appeared from out of nowhere? That's a magical trap, stupid!"

Ok, so the pcs did know that the tenacles was trapped.

How did they know? WAs it cued by you or was it up to their meta game knowledge of the effects?

 

[Cintra]

Personally, I don't see any "mistakes" in the way you ran the situation or the fact that he died. If the whole party has triggered a couple of these effects already, and no one takes any precautions or asks any questions, it's pretty likely they'd have to accept that if there are any others to be triggered, they'll have to suffer the consequences...

But I do have a question about the player.

Is his behavior unusual for him? That is, does he sometimes challenge decisions that go against him, or was this reaction completely out of the blue?

If this is out-of-the-norm behavior for this player, then I'd actually be wondering if there's something going on in his life that's causing stress. Since he's a real friend, and not just a gaming-buddy, you might be able to keep an eye out for other warning signs. Or talk to him and see if something else is going on. If so, you might be able to help, or at least take it easy on him while he gets his life back together. (Intense stress can make people do some pretty bizarre things.)

On the other hand, if he does occasionally/routinely challenge rulings that go against him, and this is just normal behavior, there's not much you can do to prevent him acting like this again. I'd just say to hold your ground, and talk to him (out-of-game) if it starts getting disruptive.

 

[DonTadow]

Like what, exactly?

Like anything? Do you only use phb core stuff in game? When I"m playing with veterans I often dip into other sources to surprise them from time to time. I use the EOM and that could easily be any of a dozen spells I've created for that system.

 

[gizmo33]

He claims he never looked for them because he assumed he couldn't find them for some odd reason.

I strongly suspect that he wouldn't have looked for the trap that killed him anyway, regardless of his perspective on the tentacles, and he's just looking for excuses.

AFAIK if you don't USE a Search check, you don't GET a Search check (except in special circumstances). It doesn't work the say Spot does - that's why it's INT based. If the Rogue had searched the area for anything, I would have given him the normal chance to detect the trap (one assumes that traps that have been sprung leave some sort of identifiable residue.) Remember that Searching takes time (I think it's one round per 5 ft area), if PCs don't take the time, they don't get the check.

I think you handled the situation properly from a rules perspective. If it were something different - like Fireball, I would have ruled a chance (based on Spellcraft) for the PC to notice that there was no "bright bead" streaking towards the target. The Evard's doesn't seem to give that extra clue. The difference in spell effect of triggering a spell through a trap vs. a spell completion action, IMO, is not explicitly stated in the rules, and there is no reason that you'd have to give you such information (ie. no reason to specify that the spell went off when the PC reached a certain point on the floor).

 

[Oryan77]

In other words, you give out crappy descriptions, too.

I definately want you to DM for me! It sounds like a couple of you guys in this thread must be amazing human beings! Flawless DM descriptions? You have some lucky players.

I don't think Thayan Menace did anything wrong at all except that he didn't apologize to his "best friend" to begin with. First of all, the first thing any human being does when things don't go their way is to quickly put the blame on others. That's all that happened here. No one likes to think they messed up, so they always blame someone else.

This guy is just upset about a character death. Did he ask any questions the first time they ran into a magic trap? What about the 2nd trap? It's either a trap or a hidden caster. If he assumed it was a caster, was he sneaking around looking for the caster or did they continue on their merry way after setting off the first & second trap? What would he have said if he died from the very first magical trap? He never stated that he was searching for traps before hitting the first trap did he?

It's a pet peeve of mine when players want you to hold thier hand and basically play their PC's for them and they use the excuse, "Well my character woulda known to do that!" This is a game that you're supposed to use your own wits...the rules are tools to help you out. A DM can help you out as much as he can but in the end, you are supposed to be that character. Players who use the rules first and their wits second are really hard to DM. When I'm playing Monopoly, if I trade all 4 railroads for Boardwalk & Parkplace, I don't complain that I'm not Donald Trump and that I shoulda known that was a bad business decision. I'm trying to pretend the best I can to be a slick businessman. All this player should be doing is pretending the best he can to be a slick rogue. It's still an assumption to say that his character would have known to search or concider it a magic trap just because he's a professional rogue. Even a professional might have assumed it was a hidden caster.

You shoulda just apologized to him right away that your description didn't please him and that you'll try to be more thorough. And then also let him know that you aren't perfect and you try your best. I've done that several times right when I hear complaints. And when players here that right away, they are always understanding. In the end, he should think to search for traps on his own just as much as you should think to give thorough descriptions on your own.

Only crappy players need their hands held.

 

[The Thayan Menace]

More Reasonable Inferences

Ok, so the pcs did know that the tenacles was trapped.

How did they know? WAs it cued by you or was it up to their meta game knowledge of the effects?

They saw a spell go off for no reason. They identified the spell. They saw no caster. They (with the exception of the rogue) assumed it was a trap.

 

[The Thayan Menace]

Like Anything?

Like anything? Do you only use phb core stuff in game? When I"m playing with veterans I often dip into other sources to surprise them from time to time. I use the EOM and that could easily be any of a dozen spells I've created for that system.

All spells that are wards have trap DCs; only certain magical items with trap-like effects do not (and even with these, I would be tempted to ad-hoc a trap DC).

 

[Crothian]

They saw a spell go off for no reason. They identified the spell. They saw no caster. They (with the exception of the rogue) assumed it was a trap.

It could have just as easily been by an invible caster or a scrying caster.