Unfair Character Death?

[The Thayan Menace]

Much of the discusion seems to be over whose "fault" the character death is. Why is anyone at fault? Dungeons are dangerous places.

I agree.

For the record, I do not hold him at fault for falling into the Evard's Tentacles trap.

I am merely asserting that I am not at fault for this.

However, I do hold him at fault for not knowing it was a magical trap (and for not making any effort to determine if it was, if he was uncertain).

 

[The Thayan Menace]

Simple Explanations

Just because everyone at the table sans the one player thought it was a trap doesn't mean that everyone should have thought it was a trap.

A trap is the simplest explanation and I am not responsible for catering to illogical thinking, especially if the player takes no in-game actions to support their point of view.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I definately want you to DM for me! It sounds like a couple of you guys in this thread must be amazing human beings! Flawless DM descriptions? You have some lucky players.

Flawless? No.

But then, you'll never, ever see me in here complaining about a player who didn't get my descriptions and ran into a trap - repeatedly.

Players aren't their PCs. PCs have access to a butt-load more information about their surroundings than the players do, because no matter how good a description I give it'll never compare with actual vision, hearing, touch, etc.

Accordingly, it's *my* job, as a DM, to get as close to those senses as possible, and if I think a player has missed something that his character might not, I'll clarify (and might call for a skill check at which the player will automatically succeed). It's not my job to screw over the players because the 20th-level Rogue forgot to mention he was checking behind the foozle's throne and assumed that, "I'm searching the throne - do I note anything suspicious?," was sufficient.

Moreover, if a PC sets off a trap and is hit by an arrow while crossing the room, the PC knows where he was standing when the arrow hit him. Refusing to tell the player that until the player chooses the right question to ask sets up an infinitely more adversarial Player - DM relationship than I am happy playing with. D&D is a game of heroic adventure. It is not, nor should it be, a game of "20 questions to figure out what the DM's thinking."

 

[reveal]

A trap is the simplest explanation and I am not responsible for catering to illogical thinking, especially if the player takes no in-game actions to support their point of view.

Why is it illogical? Because you say so? Not everyone thinks the same way.

 

[reveal]

Flawless? No.

But then, you'll never, ever see me in here complaining about a player who didn't get my descriptions and ran into a trap - repeatedly.

Players aren't their PCs. PCs have access to a butt-load more information about their surroundings than the players do, because no matter how good a description I give it'll never compare with actual vision, hearing, touch, etc.

Accordingly, it's *my* job, as a DM, to get as close to those senses as possible, and if I think a player has missed something that his character might not, I'll clarify (and might call for a skill check at which the player will automatically succeed). It's not my job to screw over the players because the 20th-level Rogue forgot to mention he was checking behind the foozle's throne and assumed that, "I'm searching the throne - do I note anything suspicious?," was sufficient.

Moreover, if a PC sets off a trap and is hit by an arrow while crossing the room, the PC knows where he was standing when the arrow hit him. Refusing to tell the player that until the player chooses the right question to ask sets up an infinitely more adversarial Player - DM relationship than I am happy playing with. D&D is a game of heroic adventure. It is not, nor should it be, a game of "20 questions to figure out what the DM's thinking."

Patryn of Elvenshae is a putz!

 

[Crothian]

The party did not act like it was. Besides, a magical trap is a simpler explanation .... Frankly, I think you are going out of your way to stretch the facts here.

A magical trap is more logical then a wizard using a scrying device or being invisible? How is this stretching the truth? We have no truth only one side of the situation, and good truth needs at least three sides.

It just boils down to a faliure in communication, and that is a mistake on all parties involved. You admit the player should have known what was going on, that the character would have known; yet it is solely the players fault that he didn't. I'm just not buying that. You describe him as a veteran player and this is a very rookie mistake.

 

[The Thayan Menace]

Illogical?

Why is it illogical? Because you say so? Not everyone thinks the same way.

True, but it doesn't take a lot of brainpower to assume its a magical trap if:

1. There are no verbal cues.

2. There are no signs of a caster nearby.

3. You have determined the existence of a triggered spell effect.

 

[The Thayan Menace]

Again With the Logic

A magical trap is more logical then a wizard using a scrying device or being invisible?

Yes, especially when there are no verbal cues. Additionally, magical traps are far more common than scheming wizards capable of repeatedly casting mid-level spells from remote locations.

 

[Crothian]

Yes, especially when there are no verbal cues. Additionally, magical traps are far more common than scheming wizards capable of repeatedly casting mid-level spells from remote locations.

Silent spell doesn't exist in your game? So, what level does a wizard need to be to set up magical traps then?

 

[reveal]

True, but it doesn't take a lot of brainpower to assume its a magical trap if:

1. There are no verbal cues.

2. There are no signs of a caster nearby.

3. You have determined the existence of a triggered spell effect.

1. Silent Spell.

2. Caster with Greater Invisibility cast on themself.

3. A spellcraft check will not let you see if a spell was triggered. What it does is allow you to see a spell that is in effect.

Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required.

So the people who passed the spellcraft check would have noticed a spell but not what triggered it.

Seems like logical thinking to me.