unfortunately not Finally settled, sunder and attacks of opp
- Thread starter bestone
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RigaMortus2
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KarinsDad said:Or possibly they noted the difference between the table and the text of the ability and realized the table was in error. Perhaps yours is the mistake.
Seriously, does anyone really think that Sunder does not belong in the same category as a normal melee attack, a disarm, or a trip?
If one can use a weapon to disarm a foe's weapon with an AoO, doesn't it also make sense that one could use a weapon to attempt to sunder the weapon with an AoO? Is there a valid logical or game balance reason for this not to be the case? I think one would really have to stretch to come up with a reason that it does not make sense or that it imbalances the game.
Yes, I agree with you here. It should work that way IMHO. I would still play it that way (call it a house rule if you will). It's just that, for me, the RAW (from just the PHB) doesn't point me to that conclussion unless I exclude the Table.
When you want to Sunder, you can use a melee attack with...
All this tells us is they type of attack we can use. It is a melee attack. It isn't a ranged attack. It isn't a melee touch attack.
We still do not know what type of ACTION it is, however. To assume that we can perform Sunder with ANY melee attack we have available, is just that, an assumption.
The text does not say the Action Type.
The table does say the Action Type. It is a Standard Action.
Once again, my little chart:
Special Attack: Sunder
Attack Type: a melee attack
Action Type: Sunder
Using the text and the table satisifies all of these. Ignorning the table, does not. We are left with:
Action Type: ???
and left to assume...
Let me pose this question... Forget about Sunder for a moment. Let's look a Disarm. Let's also IGNORE the Table. Forget the Table is even there. There is no Table...
Using just the text of Disarm, prove to me 2 things:
1) Tell me what Action Type Disarm is (if any)
2) Quote me anywhere (in the PHB) that states you can attempt to Disarm anytime you are eligible for a melee attack. If you can't find a quote (something along the lines of "This attack substitute for a melee attack" or "You can use this anytime you make a melee attack") If you can not find such a quote, are you not making a wide assumption here?
RigaMortus2
First Post
mvincent said:
Do you two want to get a room?
RigaMortus2
First Post
KarinsDad said:Agreed. RAW states that it is a Melee Attack.
A table states that it is a Standard Action.
Tables aren't RAW?
I am assuming you were being facious... ficticious... you know what I am trying to spell...
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
mvincent said:
Note his question is based on the hypothetical premise that Table 8-2 - and, by extension, footnote 7 - does not exist.
-Hyp.
I have a question from you hype, i've asked it a few times, but i really want an awnser. As to me the awnser to this question makes or breaks your argument
You have stated (and i can quote if you like) that unless you take the standard aciton sunder, the text doesnt apply.
I ask you, where is there a rule written, anywhere that states that unless you have the action type listed in the table free to perform the aciton, that you can not use it in any other way, even if the text of that action would suggest, or state that it can in fact be used in a way that wouldnt be, in itself, a standard action.
Your using an assumption that you have to be able to perform the standard action sunder for its rule to apply. Im saying you have no rules basis to make this assumption, if the rule for a special attack states it can be used a certain time. Then regardless of whether that special attack counts as a standard action or not, you can use that rule how its stated in its text.
PLEASE! show me a rule of proof?
Alll you have provided is a rule stating that the type of action only determines how long it takes to perform.
Back up your statement
Edit, again, my question Where does it state anywhere, that you can ignore the text of a standard action, even if that text would give you anoter means to use it, even if that means wasnt considered a standard action.
You have stated (and i can quote if you like) that unless you take the standard aciton sunder, the text doesnt apply.
I ask you, where is there a rule written, anywhere that states that unless you have the action type listed in the table free to perform the aciton, that you can not use it in any other way, even if the text of that action would suggest, or state that it can in fact be used in a way that wouldnt be, in itself, a standard action.
Your using an assumption that you have to be able to perform the standard action sunder for its rule to apply. Im saying you have no rules basis to make this assumption, if the rule for a special attack states it can be used a certain time. Then regardless of whether that special attack counts as a standard action or not, you can use that rule how its stated in its text.
PLEASE! show me a rule of proof?
Alll you have provided is a rule stating that the type of action only determines how long it takes to perform.
Back up your statement
Edit, again, my question Where does it state anywhere, that you can ignore the text of a standard action, even if that text would give you anoter means to use it, even if that means wasnt considered a standard action.
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
bestone said:
That's how actions work!
If you want to load your crossbow, and it's a move action, you need to use a move action to load your crossbow!
If you want to perform a coup de grace, and it's a full round action, you need to use a full round action to perform a coup de grace!
Actions are given types so that we know what type of action we need to use to perform them!
-Hyp.
Hypersmurf said:
Quote a rule on this, you can tell me thats how it works
Sunder is a special attack, not an action type, it may have an action type, but it is not an action type.
As far as i know, you read the rules for sunder, they tell you how to apply them. The table may list it as a standard action. And you can use it as a standard action, but why would that eliminate any text that would tell you that you can use it otherwise.?
Supernatural abilities are standard actions, yet under some abilities it will say they can be used as free actions. Do you have to have the standard action to use a supernatural ability that requires one, for the text that allows it to be a free action to come into play? no
why? because if the text gives it another means to be used, other than the action listed in your table, then you can use it as it is ruled in the said text.
So Please, quote me a rule that states unless you can make that action, then the text of that special attack *not action, special attack, sunder isnt an action* doesnt apply.
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