unfortunately not Finally settled, sunder and attacks of opp

[Legildur]

All they would have to do is alter the PHB errata slightly to say "Sunder should have footnote 7" or something to that effect.

Yes. And they haven't. And perhaps Bestone needs to review the earlier threads on this topic rather than having us all rehash the same old arguments for the nth time which fall into the 'Skip 'Slow Dwarf' Williams is always right' camp or the 'Where's the Errata?' camp.

Edit: Man, now I'm peeved. I thought that article must be something new and that maybe it would sway my view towards Sunder being substituted for an attack. Instead I find it's nearly 2 years old and Bestone has trotted it out and reopened old wounds without searching for earlier threads and fully reading those. Poor protocol!

 

[Mistwell]

What exactly is this "official" of which you people speak?

The only rules precedence I know of is that "primary" trumps non-primary.

All of what you quoted has to do with if there is a "disagreement between two D&D rules sources". Such is not the case here. We have a vaguely worded rule, and some clarifications one way, and no clarifications offerred that I know of the other way from an official source (though I have no dog in this fight).

You need two sources actually conflicting to use the rule you cited about primary sources. What two sources are conflicting?

 

[Hypersmurf]

All of what you quoted has to do with if there is a "disagreement between two D&D rules sources". Such is not the case here. We have a vaguely worded rule, and some clarifications one way, and no clarifications offerred that I know of the other way from an official source (though I have no dog in this fight).

You need two sources actually conflicting to use the rule you cited about primary sources. What two sources are conflicting?

The table has only one reading. Sunder is a standard action.

The text is read by different people in different ways. We can read the text as describing what the Sunder action permits - When taking the Sunder action, one can use a melee attack to etc. Or we can read the text as attaching a label to something one can do regardless of the action one is taking - One can use a melee attack, regardless of the source of that attack, to do something we will call 'Sunder'.

If we elect to take the second reading, we have a contradiction between text and table. If we elect to take the first, no contradiction exists. Thus, to me, it seems that taking the first reading is appropriate; it doesn't require us to assume an error in the PHB.

To summarise - if the text in isolation can be read in two ways, but one way contradicts information found elsewhere, then the text as part of the ruleset can only in fact be read in one way.

Once we've established this, secondary sources that ascribe footnote-7-like behaviour to Sunder are in contradiction of the primary source - the PHB - and are therefore incorrect.

-Hyp.

 

[Deset Gled]

Published by the makers of the game, rather than the conjecture of internet board posters (like you and me).

Is that an official definition, or the conjecture of an internet board poster?

 

[bestone]

"You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge (see Charge, below)."

Since it specifies "an attack", does this mean I can bull rush on an attack of opportunity?

After all, an attack of opportunity is an attack.

-Hyp.

First off

No, and you know very well thats poor logic, like i said, your grapsing at straws

Sunder states you can use it ase a MELEE ATTACK

Bull rush says as a standard action, I dont see how you can compare those? does it say anywhere in bullrush you can use it as a melee attack

Secondly, i see no-where, nowhere in the phb where it states sunder is a standard action. Because it doesnt, You can read the whole section on sunder and it wont say that. Oh but the table you say..... Well the table lists actions in combat, and what kind of action they count as, if you make a melee attack, it takes up a standard action, if you read a scroll, same thing, cast a spell, same thing, Its in no way saying these things ARE standard actions, its saying if you do them, it takes a standard action.

Like i said, in there it shows supernatural abilities, does that mean that ALL supernatural abilities are standard actions because the table says so, regardless of what thier text says? no of course not

If you make an attack, it takes up a standard action. If you make a sunder, which is an attack, it aswell takes up your standard action for the turn.

But you cant, with irrefutable proof, show me anywhere where it states and specifically, that sunder a) cant be used on attacks of opportunity and b) is a standard action.

Infact, sunder is not even listed under the text for standard actions!

The table has no text saying that these actions count as standard actions, it simply
shows that if you take that action in combat, it counts as whats listed

If you make a trip attack during your turn, that is a standard action (or of course, part of a full round action), so really the fact that it is or is not a standard action doesnt matter, now does it?

If you enter total defense, that counts as a standard action
If you make a melee attack, that counts as a standard action

The biggest flaw, as i've pointed out several times, and you havent been able to rebuff
is supernatural abilities and the like. If you use a supernatural ability, its a standard action, according to the table, but the text says that they are usually, but not always, and there are some supernatural abilities that are not standard actions. But you argue that you have to be able to use a standard action for the text to come into effect????? AGAIN show me where this is stated and you'll win this argument

So your left with what, the fact that its not foot noted? it doesnt need to be, it says what it does in its text.

When you want to sunder, you look up what sunder does, under the special attacks - sunder section, and you see that you can use it as one of your melee attacks.

When you make an attack of opportunity, you make a melee attack

Raw, you can sunder as your attack of opportunity's melee attack

in that other thread you tried telling me that the text only comes into play when the action can be used *which is a standard action*, where is this ruling, tell me that? where does it say this?, i dont see it anywhere, your making it up. What happens on a sunder attempt is listed under the sunder rules, in the book, and they are clear you can use it as a melee attack.

Besides that fact, are you telling me you honestly believe with all sincerity that it makes sense you could a: grapple someone b: disarm someone c:attack someone d: trip someone, but you couldnt take a swipe at thier weapon they are lunging at you?

 

[bestone]

The table has only one reading. Sunder is a standard action.

-Hyp.

That table, does not list what actions things are, it never says that anywhere, it says if you make that action or an attack, it counts as whatever action is listed.

There is no contradiction between the text and the pbh

You are pulling rules out of no-where stating that sunder is a standard action

Even if it is a standard action, what does that matter? you said you have to be able to make a standard action for the wording to apply....where does it say that? can you give me a page #? As i read it, there is a list of things you can do in combat, with descriptions of how they work, and what they do.

And i dont need to explain again how sunder states it works

The text is read by different people in different ways. We can read the text as describing what the Sunder action permits - When taking the Sunder action, one can use a melee attack to etc. Or we can read the text as attaching a label to something one can do regardless of the action one is taking - One can use a melee attack, regardless of the source of that attack, to do something we will call 'Sunder'.

The text under sunder does not say, nor does it incline anything to do with your statement of - When taking the sunder action.

There is no middle ground, you are adding words to the text, no where in the text does it say when you can make a sunder x happens

You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike the weapon or shield that your opponent is holding.

You can read the text as when taking the sunder action, but then your reading text you create, because thats not what it says, and not raw.


In essence, it all boils down to

If you can prove sunder is a standard action and only a standard action, then

If you can prove that you have to be able to do a standard action to have the text of a special attack apply. (which will include explaining how you can use a supernatural ability as a free action if its stated in its text, when its listed in that table as a standard action and you must be able to do a standard actiont o do it)

and finally That the text really reads "when you can do a standard action" a not the way its written as "you can use a melee attack"

then i'll agree with you, otherwise, raw, you can sunder as an attack of opportunity *as there is no rule stating you cant, but there is somethign written stating you can*

 

[bestone]

And finally, the last thing i have to say on this subject, QUOTED from the wizards posted errata for the phb

One example of a
primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning
of the spells chapter disagrees.

The text of sunder takes precendence over the table, and the way sunder is written is that it can be used as a melee attack.

Thats the rule as written.

You can assume what you want, and put words into it, but that is not how its written, an not legal/binding in any way.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Bull rush says as a standard action, I dont see how you can compare those? does it say anywhere in bullrush you can use it as a melee attack

It says it's an attack...?

Sunder and Bull Rush are both defined as standard actions; I'm not sure why one definition counts and the other doesn't...?

Its in no way saying these things ARE standard actions, its saying if you do them, it takes a standard action.

... right. If you want to Sunder, it takes a standard action. Isn't that what I've been saying?

Like i said, in there it shows supernatural abilities, does that mean that ALL supernatural abilities are standard actions because the table says so, regardless of what thier text says? no of course not

It means that unless the specific supernatural ability states otherwise, it's a standard action.

As written, for example, Smite Evil is a standard action, because it doesn't specify otherwise; that standard action allows you to make a normal melee attack with some bonuses.

If you make an attack, it takes up a standard action. If you make a sunder, which is an attack, it aswell takes up your standard action for the turn.

Rather, if you take the attack action, it's a standard action. Making an attack might be part of the attack action, the full attack action, the charge action, the Manyshot action, the Sunder action, the Cast a Spell action, the Smite Evil action, or even an AoO. Using a melee attack to strike an opponent's weapon or shield, on the other hand, is part of the Sunder action.

The table has no text saying that these actions count as standard actions, it simply
shows that if you take that action in combat, it counts as whats listed

Right. If you take the Sunder action in combat, it counts as a standard action.

If you make a trip attack during your turn, that is a standard action (or of course, part of a full round action), so really the fact that it is or is not a standard action doesnt matter, now does it?

A Trip isn't a standard action; it replaces a melee attack, and can thus be used once in an Attack or Charge action, one or more times in a Full Attack action, or on an AoO. A Sunder is a standard action, and you can use a melee attack to strike an opponent's weapon or shield.

If you make a melee attack, that counts as a standard action

The attack action is a standard action. Making a melee attack is part of assorted actions - one of which is the Sunder standard action.

The Full Attack action does not consist of multiple standard actions strung together; rather, it's multiple melee attacks, all of which are part of a single full round action.

But you argue that you have to be able to use a standard action for the text to come into effect?

I'm saying that if you're not taking the Charge action, the description of what happens when you Charge is irrelevant. If you're not taking the Cast a Spell action, it doesn't matter how you cast spells.

If you're taking the Sunder action, you can use a melee attack to strike an opponent's weapon or shield. If you aren't taking the Sunder action, you can't use a melee attack to strike an opponent's weapon or shield.

If you're taking the Full Attack action, you aren't taking the Sunder action... so you can't use a melee attack to strike an opponent's weapon or shield. If you're making an AoO, you aren't taking the Sunder action... so you can't use a melee attack to strike an opponent's weapon or shield. You can only use a melee attack to strike an opponent's weapon or shield if you're taking the Sunder action... which is a standard action, not action type: varies.

Raw, you can sunder as your attack of opportunity's melee attack

Not if you aren't taking the Sunder action.

Besides that fact, are you telling me you honestly believe with all sincerity that it makes sense you could a: grapple someone b: disarm someone c:attack someone d: trip someone, but you couldnt take a swipe at thier weapon they are lunging at you?

Are you telling me it makes sense that if someone's running past you, you could grapple them, disarm them, attack them, trip them, but not shove them off the bridge?

Are you telling me it makes sense that if someone tries to shoot at you four times, you could (with Combat Reflexes) hit them four times... but if they're paralyzed, you don't even get to hit them once?

I'm not concerned with what 'makes sense'; I'm merely concerned with the fact that the table says Sunder is a standard action, and the description of that standard action says you can use a melee attack to strike a weapon. If you aren't taking the action, you aren't striking the weapon...

The text of sunder takes precendence over the table, and the way sunder is written is that it can be used as a melee attack.

But there's no contradiction. When you're taking the standard action (per the table), what can you do? You can use a melee attack to strike a weapon (per the text). Both are satisfied; neither needs to take precedence, because both are true.

-Hyp.

 

[GwydapLlew]

Man, sometimes I wish there was a opcorn: smiley here on ENW.

Bestone, maybe if you hear it from someone other than Hypersmurg you might understand more fully. Those who belong to the 'no Sunder on an AoO' camp use the following logic:

Sunder is a standard action. You cannot use a standard action as part of an Attack of Opportunity, only an attack. An attack can also be made as part of an attack action - which could include either a single attack, or multiple attacks (based on whether you are using a Full Attack action or not).

The oft-mentioned table indicates which standard actions are allowable in an AoO. Sunder is not mentioned on this table. Since one interpretation of the text on Sunder is in line with the table, those who follow that interpretation see no rules conflict.

Make sense?

 

[bestone]

It says it's an attack...?

Sunder and Bull Rush are both defined as standard actions; I'm not sure why one definition counts and the other doesn't...?

Where does it say sunder is an standard action? in your table? no it says Actions in combat, sundering in combat is a standard action, as is melee attacks. I read no words stating anywhere that sunder is a standard aciton. Your assuming that because its listen on a table that shows actions being taken in combat counting as standard actions, that it counts as one, but thats an assumption, it never clearly states that anyways, and since there is discrepency, go with the text of sunder

It means that unless the specific supernatural ability states otherwise, it's a standard action.

As written, for example, Smite Evil is a standard action, because it doesn't specify otherwise; that standard action allows you to make a normal melee attack with some bonuses.

But you said the text doesnt come into effect unless you can make that action?????? so now your contradicting yourself, so now your saying if the text says otherwise it can be done?

Rather, if you take the attack action, it's a standard action. Making an attack might be part of the attack action, the full attack action, the charge action, the Manyshot action, the Sunder action, the Cast a Spell action, the Smite Evil action, or even an AoO. Using a melee attack to strike an opponent's weapon or shield, on the other hand, is part of the Sunder action.



Right. If you take the Sunder action in combat, it counts as a standard action.

You've still yet to prove that it says anywhere that you cant use an action's text because it counts as a standard action? No where in any rule book does it say you have to be able to use a standard action to be able to use an special attack that counts as one when used, or the text becomes invalid.

A Trip isn't a standard action; it replaces a melee attack, and can thus be used once in an Attack or Charge action, one or more times in a Full Attack action, or on an AoO. A Sunder is a standard action, and you can use a melee attack to strike an opponent's weapon or shield.

When you trip as a melee attack, its a standard action, or part of a full round action, just like sunder, if you sunder as an attack its a standard action, no-where under trip or sunder does it state they are standard actions. Infact the fact trip is in a section called "varies" in your table even proves my point even more

The action trip counts as varies , it can be used as a standard action (as a melee attack) or part of a fulll round action, Or as a counter trip if someone tries to trip you. This shows not that the table is stating WHAT ACTIONS things are, but more, what actions they count as when used.

The attack action is a standard action. Making a melee attack is part of assorted actions - one of which is the Sunder standard action.

You've still yet to show me any text where it states sunder is a standard action, only an assumption that the table states that, and that the table then over-rules the text, which it doesnt. which is discrepency.

I'm saying that if you're not taking the Charge action, the description of what happens when you Charge is irrelevant. If you're not taking the Cast a Spell action, it doesn't matter how you cast spells.

Sure is, if an ability is listed on a table as a standard action, but it has a special form of getting it off listed in its text, the text takes precedense. In this case, sunder can be used as a standard action, but it can also be used as a melee attack, a melee attack is just that, a melee attack. Your still putting words and assumptions into how sunder is written, and your contradictiong your own arguments.

"supernatural abilities can be used as what they are because thier text says so, but sunder cant because its listed as a standard action and that makes its text irrelevant"

You cant have it both ways you know, either the text states how it works, or it doesnt, And the text states it can be used as a melee attack, during an attack of opportunity you get a melee attack.

YOU are trying to add words that are not written anywhere, that state "when you can sunder" Which is not how its written, and that makes your logic not RAW.

RAW you can very well sunder on an attack of opportunity

If you're taking the Sunder action, you can use a melee attack to strike an opponent's weapon or shield. If you aren't taking the Sunder action, you can't use a melee attack to strike an opponent's weapon or shield.

I see none of this under the sunder special attacks description, NOR DO i see sunder under the standard actions text. (which you cleverly left out in your rebuttal, text precedes tables, and the text of the tables doesnt list it as a standard action). Sunder does not say "when making a sunder you can use a melee attack" it says You can use a melee attack to sunder.

But there's no contradiction. When you're taking the standard action (per the table), what can you do? You can use a melee attack to strike a weapon (per the text). Both are satisfied; neither needs to take precedence, because both are true.

-Hyp.

The text for actions in combat, which precedes the table, does not list sunder as a standard action under it, you again, are simply assuming that the table is labelling everything under it a standard action, instead of saying when you take that special attack, or do whats listed that it counts as that action. I see discrepency enough there to go with the text

And both the text on standard actions, and sunder never state it counts as its own standard action.