unfortunately not Finally settled, sunder and attacks of opp

[bestone]

You mean like the Special Ability Types Table (Table 8-1 in 3.5) in both 3E and 3.5 where Dispel Magic is listed as affecting Supernatural Special Abilities, even though the text states that it does not and WotC was informed on multiple occassions that this is in error?

Your "multiple version" point here is not convincing.

Text takes precendence over tables. The text states that Sunder is a Melee Attack, not a Standard Action.

Even if sunder was a standard action, The text states you can use sunder as a melee attack.

On an aoo, you make a melee attack.

Like im saying, supernatural abilities are listed on that table as standard actions

But thier text may say otherwise, some are used instead of thier attacks, some are free actions, ect ect.

You always go by the text

The counter argument on this was: The text for sunder only comes into play if you are using a standard action to sunder.

or

If they would have wanted it to work that way, it would be listed with footnote 7

or a few other less argued points

The main problem i found with it was the arguing of table over text, when i take a standpoint from the information written in the faq, that text is primary, and the table is secondary. And the text for sunder didnt list it as a standard action, but did say you can use a melee attack to apply it.

 

[Legildur]

The main problem i found with it was the arguing of table over text, when i take a standpoint from the information written in the faq, that text is primary, and the table is secondary.

The equipment table (and others) would beg to differ with you.

 

[Hypersmurf]

You mean like the Special Ability Types Table (Table 8-1 in 3.5) in both 3E and 3.5 where Dispel Magic is listed as affecting Supernatural Special Abilities, even though the text states that it does not and WotC was informed on multiple occassions that this is in error?

Here we have a contradiction, so text-over-tables works.

Text takes precendence over tables. The text states that Sunder is a Melee Attack, not a Standard Action.

The text for the Sunder action states that you can use a melee attack to strike a weapon. I don't agree that this contradicts a definition elsewhere that the Sunder action is a standard action. Since both can be true (You take a standard action, and doing so allows you to use a melee attack to strike a weapon), text-over-tables isn't necessary to satisfy all the rules.

-Hyp.

 

[bestone]

The equipment table (and others) would beg to differ with you.

Its been stated in the phb errata, Text is a primary source of information, and tables are secondary. Im not making anything im just remarking on what i read in that.

 

[bestone]

And this is where the entire debate comes to a point

The text for the Sunder action states that you can use a melee attack to strike a weapon.

You agree that the text for sunder says what it says, and what it means, with me

I don't agree that this contradicts a definition elsewhere that the Sunder action is a standard action.

I dont disagree

Since both can be true (You take a standard action, and doing so allows you to use a melee attack to strike a weapon), text-over-tables isn't necessary to satisfy all the rules.

Here is where we now disagree, I dont see anywhere in sunder where it says you must use a standard action to sunder. I read that according to the table sundering is a standard action. But it does not say under sunder "as a standard action" nor does the text insinuate such. Where we disagree is you say you must use sunder (the standard action) to sunder. I say when you sunder its a standard action. And personally i think regardless of that, Sunders text is clear how it works, and doesnt disclude it from attacks of opportunity.

And i dont agree with you that you must be able to do a standard action for the rules of a special attack listed as one to come into play, vis-a-vie my standpoint on standard actions.

A ruling stated anywhere that the rules for each special attack dont come into effect unless you have the action listed in the table to do them would prove your side of things as true.

I see no such ruling, so you are making an assumption that the text doesnt apply unless you can make the action (which i personally think is unfounded, expecially when compared with supernatural abilities)

And i say that the rules written under the special attack state how you use it, and using it that way may be a special attack, but i dont think it discludes using it on an aoo.

 

[Nail]

Perhaps part of the issue might be: "Why does it say 'melee attack' when it could have said 'standard action'?"

Try this: Could a ranged attack sunder a weapon? Could a touch spell sunder a weapon? Could a grapple touch attack sunder a weapon? Etc.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I say when you sunder its a standard action. And personally i think regardless of that, Sunders text is clear how it works, and doesnt disclude it from attacks of opportunity.

This is still where you completely lose me. You say it's a standard action, except that it isn't?

-Hyp.

 

[bestone]

Perhaps part of the issue might be: "Why does it say 'melee attack' when it could have said 'standard action'?"

Try this: Could a ranged attack sunder a weapon? Could a touch spell sunder a weapon? Could a grapple touch attack sunder a weapon? Etc.

It could have just as easilly said "When you take a standard action, you can use a melee attack to sunder"

which would have put it inline with bull rush and such like karinsdad said

But it doesnt state that

 

[KarinsDad]

The text for the Sunder action states that you can use a melee attack to strike a weapon. I don't agree that this contradicts a definition elsewhere that the Sunder action is a standard action. Since both can be true (You take a standard action, and doing so allows you to use a melee attack to strike a weapon), text-over-tables isn't necessary to satisfy all the rules.

The text for the Melee Attack action states that you can use a melee attack to strike a creature. I don't agree that this contradicts a definition elsewhere that the Melee Attack action is a standard action. Since both can be true (You take a standard action, and doing so allows you to use a melee attack to strike a creature), text-over-tables isn't necessary to satisfy all the rules.


Good for the goose. Good for the gander.

No Sunders in AoOs. No Melee Attacks in AoOs.


You have multiple problems with your POV:

1) Other sources from WotC disagree with it.

2) The text portion of Sunder does not state that it is a Standard Action which is literally a contradiction with your interpretation (i.e. the text does not explicitly state Standard Action, it explicitly states Melee Attack).

3) The Melee Attack action in the exact same table has the exact same issues for AoOs that Sunder does (regardless of your very stretched explanation of why it applies to one and not the other).

 

[bestone]

This is still where you completely lose me. You say it's a standard action, except that it isn't?

-Hyp.

I dont state that it isnt, i state that it may be a standard action, but the if the text says how you can use it. If you use it in your turn, as one of your actions, its a standard action. But by the wording of the text, i read it to also be allowed to be applied to aoo's by how its written (You can use a melee attack).

I've never seen a rule that states you cant use a standard action to sunder, expecially if its written under that action how it gets used. If you read some supernatural abilities, the text may allow them to be used at odd times, even tho supernatural abilities are listed as a standard action.