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unfortunately not Finally settled, sunder and attacks of opp

Nail said:
I couldn't agree more.

So....since the text doesn't tell us what kind of action the Sunder is, but the table above the text *does* tell us what kind of action it is....... :D

Who said that Sunder has to be an action (in the primary source)?

According to the text of Sunder, it is a melee attack. A melee attack can be used as part of a Standard Action, a Full Round Attack, a Charge Action, or even an AoO non-action.


This fascination with Sunder having to be an action appears to be interfering with people's judgement with respect to what the Sunder text actually states. :confused:
 

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KarinsDad said:
Precisely.

Errata Rule: Primary Sources
When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry.

You highlighted the wrong section.

Taking BOTH the Table and Text into context:

Table:
Standard Action: Sunder

Text:
You can use a melee attack

If you allow both table and text, there is no disagreement. It is only when you disregard the table, that you get a disagreement, and at that point (this is the funny part), it isn't even a matter of "text trumpts table" because... you've already decided to ignore the table entry anyway.
 

What he is saying is the primary source of information doesnt state it has to be used as any sort of action. It does however state that you can use it as a melee attack. Which i dont know how you could read that differently. I see what your saying however, Its a standard action, and you can use that standard action as a melee attack. But i dont think that table limits it to that, i belive the table shows that making a melee attack to sunder during your round would be a standard action, but the text (imho) explicity allows you to use it in other situations, like on an aoo.

And one of the reasons i believe this is - aoo says make a melee attack, sunder says use a melee attack.

The point for me is, i just dont see any rule that specifically would limit you from using that text *which allows you to USE a melee attack* on something that gives you a melee attack.

Edit- And like i said, i realise your saying well it is a standard action because the table says so (but i believe the table - actions in combat - tells you when you take an action to sunder in combat, then it simply counts as a standard action, but i may very well be wrong on that)

And that you have to have a standard action for the text of the special attack to apply.

But i dont buy that. The primary source doesnt explicitly limit to a standard aaction. The table says using it is a standard action. But even still, the rule for the special attack sunder gives it a use that may not be any specific action at all.
 
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Nail said:
The table 8-2 "Actions in Combat", page 141 of the 3.5e PH.

The table 8-2 "Actions in Combat" also states that Unarmed Attacks have an AoO and that Bull Rush is a Standard Action, but this is not necessarily true either.

When you use both the table and the text, a Sunder could be a Standard Action, but it does not have to be. Just like a Bull Rush could be a Standard Action, but it does not have to be.
 

KarinsDad said:
The table 8-2 "Actions in Combat" also states that Unarmed Attacks have an AoO and that Bull Rush is a Standard Action, but this is not necessarily true either.
...and how do you know that? ;)
 


off topic, - if you now list threads by the amount of posts, this thread now takes the cake and is in top spot
 
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Hypersmurf said:
... ahh.

So Disarm and Trip have Footnote 7 because you can Counterdisarm or Countertrip, and Grapple has Footnote 7 because it can extend beyond your turn into another turn and they can try to break it then, and Sunder doesn't but can be used once in an Attack or Charge action, one or more times in a Full Attack action, or as an AoO anyway?

-Hyp.

Correct. I'm glad you've finally seen the light. :)
 

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