unfortunately not Finally settled, sunder and attacks of opp

[Felix]

page 40 fairly quickly.

 

[Nail]

Only if....

 

[Nail]

all of us....

 

[Nail]

keep posting....

 

[RigaMortus2]

@ RigaMortus2

I take it your trying to suggest that without the table you wouldnt be able to do any of those attack at any time, thus you need the table to tell you when you can do them.

Basically, that is what I am suggesting. You could ASSUME that there is no special Action Type, and that they can be used whenever you are eligible to take a melee attack. But this would be an assumption. Since the Table DOES exisit to back this assumption up, it no longer becomes an assumption and becomes fact.

I disagree, because when you refer to the text, your still assuming the table is there.

I am not clear what you mean by this... Can you explain?

Either we are ignoring the Table completely, in which case, all we have are assumptions as to when we can make our Disarms, Trips and Grapples. OR we are using the information in the Table that spells out when we can take our Disarms, Trips and Grapples. But if we DO read the Table to support this, why would we all of a sudden decide to ignore the Table when it comes to Sunder?

In other words, the Text does not tell us WHEN we can make the Disarm check. It tells us HOW to take it (As a melee attack). When can we make a Disarm "as a melee attack"? Check the Table (it's footnote 7).
The Text does not tell us WHEN we can make a Sunder attempt. It tells us HOW to take it (You can use a melee attack). When can make a Sunder by "using a melee attack"? Check the Table (under Standard Actions).

As a melee attack (disarm)

You can use a melee attack (sunder)

To start a grapple it requires a successive melee attack (grapple)

So you want me to quote a rule? those are all lines from the text, the text is the rules.

Again, those tell me the attack TYPE (a melee attack vs. a ranged attack). That still does not tell me WHEN or what ACTION TYPE (if any).

Quote me the rule that tells me WHEN I can make/use the melee attack? I know that it IS a melee attack, but I do not know WHEN I can make that melee atttack. Is it only on my turn? On my opponents turn? During an AoO? Only when I take a Full-Round Action? A Standard Action? A Move Action?

If you can't quote the rule, then you are simply assuming "anytime you are eligible for a melee attack, you can make a Disarm, Trip, Grapple or Sunder". It's all assumption until you can quote the rule as to WHEN you can make it vs HOW it is performed.

Without the table how would you interpret them?

Exactly. WITHOUT THE TABLE... Without the Table, I would be left to ASSUME that you can take them whenever you are eligible to make a melee attack. No matter if it is a Grapple, Trip, Disarm or Sunder. However, WITH the Table we can verify that Grapple, Trip and Disarm can be done whenever you have a melee attack to take, and that Sunder (a) lacks that footnote and (b) is a Standard Action (unlike Grapple, Trip and Disarm).

I dont know about you, but if there was a rule telling me that if i have one thing (a), i could use it as (b) instead. Then when i have (a), i can use it as (b).

If only such a rule existed. Quote please...

The text doesnt say its a standard action, it simply says, when you have (a), you can use it as (b).

False. The text does NOT state that. I would love to see a rules quote that states "If you have a Special Attack that requires a melee attack, you may substitute any melee attack you are granted for such an attack". Or SOMETHING to that effect.

aoo's, melee attacks, full round attacks, give you (a)

Ok...

The text states, i can use that (a) as (b) instead.

This is the rules quote I am asking for. WHERE does it state this?
Note: Unless you are referring to the rules in the Table for footnote 7?

Or do you read that text as something entirely different, or dont consider it a rule?

I am trying to find the text you are referring to. It doesn't appear in my PHB or any online SRD that I am aware of.

 

[Nail]

....ahhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..........

RigaMortus2, what have you done!

 

[bestone]

Yeah, just let it die

 

[Legildur]

Nah... we are so close to 500 posts!!!

 

[Sithobi1]

Yeah, just let it die

So you're saying you don't have a response?

 

[bestone]

Sure, if thats what it takes to kill this thing