Unholy Toughness

[Drowbane]

By the time you're playing with 34 char you're well beyond the average question and answer. Why don't you post the character(s) and let people consider the whole question with background.


Sigurd

Background: New Undead get this ability. Old Undead do not, even though it makes just as much sense for the older undead to have it also.
The whole question: What is Unholy Toughness worth?

 

[Geoff Watson]

Obviously, it depends on the creature's Charisma.

Geoff.

 

[ValhallaGH]

This would give my lvl 12 character 144 HP (34 Cha).

Further thoughts?

I've got four level 5 characters that can one-shot that if it weren't undead, and two level 3 characters that can do the same. All of them can take that down in two or three hits.

It seems fair to me. It gives your undead a fighting chance.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I wouldn't change the CR. The undead you're talking about are just too fragile to start with, so this ability brings them up to par. I would warn the players that these monsters will be harder to kill than before, though.

LA doesn't matter unless you have vampire and lich PCs, which I'd guess isn't the case.

I agree with hong that the undead are too fragile to start with, but you as the GM still may want to change the CR if your group was having trouble with the old fragile versions. Myself, I've already been handing this out to certain undead in my games, and it makes a huge difference--take a look at Xan and Kari, two level 40 Shadow Liches (Xan is the Shadow Lich in my game's main world, Kari comes from an alternate shadow dimension--both are basically the most powerful undead entities around, although the group managed to thwart Xan once by desroying his phylactery). Note how Kari is much harder to kill and Xan is basically a joke when he isn't possessing somebody's body

[SBLOCK=Xan]Thanatos, Wiz5/RWi20/AMg5/ALr10 Shadow Lich Sidhe
Medium Undead (Shadow)
Hit Dice: 40d12 (320 hp) or 40d12+520 (840 hp)
Initiative: +14
Speed: 30 ft, fly 60 ft (perfect)
Armour Class: 72 (+21 insight, +17 deflection, +10 armour, +14 Dex), touch 62, ff 42
Base Attack/Grapple: +20/+26
Attack: Touch +26 melee (1d8+5 plus paralysis) or Ray +34 ranged (various)
Full Attack: Touch +26/+21 melee (1d8+5 plus paralysis)
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
Special Attacks: Damaging touch, fear aura, paralysing touch, spells
Special Qualities: TR 4, SR 56, DR 21/- and 40/bludgeoning and magic, Fast Healing 5, Shadow Step, Shadow Shift, Shadow Mastery, Darkvision 120 ft, Immunities, Undead Traits
Saves: Fort +33 (+29) Ref +30 Will +39
Abilities: Str 23 Dex 39 Con – (36) Int 53 Wis 37 Cha 45
Skills: Spellcraft +79, Knowledge [Arcana] +64 (43 ranks)
Feats: Spellcasting Prodigy [Wizard], Spell Focus [Illusion], Improved Spell Focus [Illusion], Eldritch Focus [Illusion], Quicken Spell, Twin Spell, Skill Focus [Spellcraft], Reactive Counterspell, Improved Metamagicx2, Epic Spellcasting, Improved Spell Capacityx3, Epic Skill Focus [Spellcraft], Epic Spell Focus [Illusion], Epic Spell Penetration, Augment Spell, 1 Epic Feat
Challenge Rating: 40
Spells: 4+1/10+1/10+1/9+1/9+1/9+1/9+1/8+1/8+1/8+1/5+1/4+1/4+1, Caster Level 50 (58 vs SR, 60 Ill, 68 Ill vs SR), Spell DC 32 + SL (40 + SL Ill, -1 to Evc,Tra,Cnj, +1 to Nec,Enc)
Illusion Spell Power +10, Illusion Defense +5, Spell Power +10, Mastery of Counterspelling, Mastery of Elements, Spell Immunity {Disjunction, Time Stop, Meteor Swarm, 2 more}, Other [/SBLOCK]

[SBLOCK=Kari]Makaria, Sor5/Inc20/AMg5/Smx10 Shadow Lich Sidhe
Medium Undead (Shadow)
Hit Dice: 40d12+880 (1200 hp)
Initiative: +14
Speed: 30 ft, fly 60 ft (perfect)
Armour Class: 68 (+22 luck, +22 deflection, +14 Dex), touch 68, ff 54
Base Attack/Grapple: +20/+25
Attack: Touch +25 melee (1d8+5 plus paralysis) or Ray +34 ranged (various)
Full Attack: Touch +25/+20 melee (1d8+5 plus paralysis)
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
Special Attacks: Damaging touch, fear aura, paralysing touch, spells
Special Qualities: TR 4, SR 56, DR 22/– and 40/bludgeoning and magic, Fast Healing 5, Shadow Step, Shadow Shift, Shadow Mastery, Darkvision 120 ft, Immunities, Undead Traits
Saves: Fort +60 Ref +52 Will +62
Abilities: Str 21 Dex 39 Con – Int 43 Wis 39 Cha 55
Skills: Spellcraft +78, Knowledge [Arcana] +59 (43 ranks)
Feats: Spellcasting Prodigy [Sorceress], Skill Focus [Spellcraft], Spell Focus [Transmutation], Quicken Spell, Twin Spell, Force Spell, Improved Counterspell, Reactive Counterspell, Improved Metamagicx2, Epic Spellcasting, Improved Spell Capacityx6, Epic Skill Focus [Spellcraft], Augment Spell, 1 Epic Feat and 2 Feats
Challenge Rating: 40
Spells: 6/10/10/10/9/9/9/9/8/8/5/5/4/4/4/4 Caster Level 46 Spell DC 33 + SL (34 + SL Tra)
Control Spell, Resilient Soul, Absorb Arcane Energy, Instant Metamagicx4, Improved Metamagic, Spell Power +6, Mastery of Counterspelling, Mastery of Elements, Metamagic Celerity, Automatic Still, Automatic Silent, Automatic Enlarge, Automatic Widen, Automatic Quicken, Infinite Forms
[/SBLOCK]

 

[ValhallaGH]

I don't have access to the Shadow Lich template, but the regular Lich adds +2 to the CR. Why are they only CR 40 when they have 40 levels and a template?

 

[Rystil Arden]

I don't have access to the Shadow Lich template, but the regular Lich adds +2 to the CR. Why are they only CR 40 when they have 40 levels and a template?

Because things with NPC class levels are often too easy to kill (particularly since these two lack their magic items!) and I copy/pasted from notes to myself where I took care of that For a regular game (particularly if you give them back appropriate magic items), they would actually be CR 44. I buy that a bit more for Kari, but Xan definitely is not CR 44, particularly when not possessing a body.

 

[Garnfellow]

I don't think unholy toughness is quite worth a +1 to the CR for most undead. It depends on the number of HD and the Cha bonus.

If the ability provides 3 or less hp, it's not worth as much as Toughness, a rather weak feat, so probably isn't worth +0 CR or LA.

If the ability provides more than 3 hp but not more than +1 hp/HD, it's not worth as much as the Improved Toughness feat, a pretty decent feat. I would give it +0 CR and maybe +1 LA.

If the ability provides more than 3 hp and more than +1 hp/HD, it's better than any feat and probably worth +1 CR and +1 LA.

If the ability provides more than 6 hp/level, it more than doubles the monster's hp and is probably worth +2 CR and maybe (?) +3 LA.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I think if it doubles the hit points, it should add +1 CR (or LA). Much less than that- don't worry about it, unless the CR is borderline. Maybe add a penalty somewhere- for a vampire character, have it so that unholy toughness doesn't apply in the daytime, or something.

 

[Exquisite Dead Guy]

After watching my poor dracolich get mowed down I gave some serious thought to either giving all undead Unholy Toughness or making it a feat.

How about a magic item that grants Unholy Toughness? Any thoughts on pricing/creation?

 

[hong]

After watching my poor dracolich get mowed down I gave some serious thought to either giving all undead Unholy Toughness or making it a feat.

That's what I'd do. But they also get d12 HD _and_ immunity to crits/SA, which is a bit much. So to balance out the extra hp, I'd reduce the crit immunity to 50% or 25% fortification.