Unintended(?) Consequence of No More X-Mas Tree?

[Raven Crowking]

I ran a low-magic game way back when 3.0 first came out. When the Wizard got Fly + Improved Invisibility, I could not challenge the Wizard without overwhelming the other two PCs (a Fighter/Paladin and a homebrew Rogueish kinda guy).

I find that dispel magic is a useful counter to this sort of thing, where something effectively announces its presence. Invisibility doesn't mean the wizard cannot be heard, and the spell ends if the subject attacks any creature, including any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. So, while it might allow a sort of suicidal first-strike, it won't be the overwhelming combination you might imagine. Depending upon the battlefield, Fly isn't always as useful as you might like, either.

The occasional foe with Blind-Fight can help here, too. The idea isn't to nerf the tactic, but to prevent it from being a catch-all tactic that can be used in every battle.

A high-level, low-magic game (even with Wizards at 1/2 level) will see Wizards with Fly and Protection from Arrows. Normal dudes have no way to trouble him; he's got enough 2nd level spells to ignore a lot of those attacks.

First off, PFA only gives DR 10, and a critical with an arrow can easily pierce his DR. A number of other missile-type attacks can do the same, including bows and other missiles that allow you to add your Strength bonus to damage.

The question is: how do you balance encounters against a Wizard in a low-magic, high-level game, even if Wizards progress at 1/2 the normal rate? Encounters that threaten the Wizard will chew up the other classes.

The same way it was done in 1e: lots of mooks + wandering monsters = dead spellcaster if the spellcaster doesn't save some of his spells. A spellcaster in a world where he can't guarantee the chance to rest & recover spells should never use his last spell. He always needs an ace or two up his sleeve.

Don't pull your punches, and the players will learn to keep a reserve.

In all of these cases, it is useful to have areas where other spells might have been more useful, forcing the players to consider other options.

Try it and see how it works.

RC

 

[Corinth]

I would not be worried. So long as creation of magical items remains within the hands of the players, the X-Mas Tree Effect will persist. Why? Because gear is a force multiplier; regardless of the user's innate quality, superior gear always makes him more effective in all relevant ways. Smart players get this, and so they will upgrade their gear early and often, because superior performance is universally desired.

 

[Raven Crowking]

So, wait...are you really saying "well, at 20th level you don't fight, so it doesn't matter that anything can beat the crap out of you"?

No, I am saying that (1) you need to balance encounters against the game you are playing, which means against the PCs as they are, rather than against the high-magic baseline*, and (2) that you need to consider other kinds of challenges (which is, actually, a good idea regardless of whether or not you are using the baseline).

In a low-magic game, most opponents are hordes of low-CR guys, with a few more dangerous opponents.

Well, when a D&D guy dies, under these rules, is for being "tired" from yesterday...:/
(Usually, you only recover 1Hp/level/day when adventuring, so recovering may take a bit... in other words, you'll end up losing more HP/day than you can recover.)

No, he dies from being run through today. It is true, however, that if he wasn't so tired from yesterday that he might have moved a bit faster and turned that blade aside.

RC

*And I maintain this is true even when playing "baseline" D&D unless you have an iconic, fully optimized party, especially as the levels go up.

 

[Raven Crowking]

care to make a specific example with a monster taken straight from the MM?
Not about the deathtrap, that's easy. I mean, of a challenge that would be balanced for high level characters without magic?

Sure. Show me the characters, and I'll show you the challenge.

This is metagaming.
If my character is resting in bed, why should he be bothered if the rest of the party rests or does something else?

So? Doesn't every D&D game contain a boatload of metagaming to make the game run more smoothly?

RC

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

I actually agree with you're whole post except this last part.

I think the fact that the rules communicate "with more certainty" with each other will make it easier to see the effects of your changes.

Oh, and I agree with that as well. It will be easier to see the effects of your changes, but my guess is that most changes will have too large an effect across the whole game to actually be made.

For instance, if all classes have the same BAB and use their "best" stat for all of their powers, then essentially ALL classes have the same chance to hit all enemies(with slight variations for attacks that target different saves instead of AC), then you can probably see easily that all the players have a...say....60% chance of hitting.

You can tell that adding plus 1 to hit will make that character do 5% more damage. That might be an easy change, however with the numbers so "tight" the way they are, a change like this only causes an imbalance(albeit a slight one, and my theory is that's what magic items do in 4th).

And certainly a change like "I don't like fighters having powers, I just want them to do normal attacks instead" causes a large part of the system to fall apart.

 

[Njall]

Sure. Show me the characters, and I'll show you the challenge.

Assume the aforementioned fighter 20.
Two Rogues 20.
Wizard 20 ( houseruled for half CL).

So? Doesn't every D&D game contain a boatload of metagaming to make the game run more smoothly?

RC

...and? The fact that you need metagaming to make the game work means that something doesn't work in the first place. In high magic settings, for example, you don't need this much downtime and you don't need to metagame to attempt to make everyone happy.
Since your point is that the game works fine even in low magic campaigns, I don't see how you can advocate both things.

 

[Lanefan]

I really hope some people's speculations in this thread are wrong, and that one will be able to tinker with 4e rules without having to worry about knock-on effects from here to evermore.

I mean, if we can't tinker with the rules, how are DMs supposed to have any fun?

Lanefan

 

[Raven Crowking]

Assume the aforementioned fighter 20.
Two Rogues 20.
Wizard 20 ( houseruled for half CL).

Characters enter a cavern 60 ft x 60 ft, with a number of 5-foot natural caverns coming out from all sides, ceiling height averages 20 feet. The tunnel that the PCs have come out of has many small side-tunnels.

As the PCs cross this tunnel, they are attacked by a horde of goblins. There are 60 goblins in total, 20 with short bows, 20 with short swords, and 20 with reach weapons (spears).

There is a simple example of an encounter that can both affect the PCs, and that the PCs can easily defeat without needing to rest.

...and? The fact that you need metagaming to make the game work means that something doesn't work in the first place.

That's every rpg, then. In high magic settings, for example, you need to metagame to explain why the BBEG didn't just teleport into the PC's bedroom and kill him in his sleep. You need to metagame to explain why the 1st level PCs weren't encountering high-CR monsters early in their career, or why some dragon didn't swoop down and eat them. For that matter, if these PCs were destined to be heroes, why didn't some BBEG use divination magic to discover that earlier, and kill them as babies?

There is no such thing as a rpg in which metagaming doesn't play an important part (as authorial intent plays in important part in all stories, with players & DM together taking the part of "authors"). Metagaming is normal, and necessary. Saying otherwise is.....simply wrong. If you think you game without metagaming, you're fooling yourself.


RC

 

[LostSoul]

I find that dispel magic is a useful counter to this sort of thing, where something effectively announces its presence.

Readily available Dispel Magic means that you don't have a low-magic game any more.

Invisibility doesn't mean the wizard cannot be heard, and the spell ends if the subject attacks any creature, including any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. So, while it might allow a sort of suicidal first-strike, it won't be the overwhelming combination you might imagine.

Improved Invisibility doesn't go away after you attack. Beware II + Fly + Wand of Fireballs! You're looking at 14th level for this combo, but it's a killer.

Depending upon the battlefield, Fly isn't always as useful as you might like, either.

True, If you do go into dungeons, then you're in a worse way. But to me, low-magic games aren't filled with dungeons. That's just an assumption on my part.

First off, PFA only gives DR 10, and a critical with an arrow can easily pierce his DR. A number of other missile-type attacks can do the same, including bows and other missiles that allow you to add your Strength bonus to damage.

Yeah. Add in (Improved) Invisibility or Obscuring Mist. Now not only do they have to hit you and beat your DR (or wear away your 50 points of resistance), but they have to wait until you come out of your hiding spot. Of course, with Improved Invisibility, you don't have to hide - you can just fly around blasting guys.

It's true that you can increase the damage and break through the DR of Protection from Arrows. But if you have enough guys to do that before the Wizard can get off an Obscuring Mist or Invisibility, what is the Fighter to do?

Those same archers will blow him away.

The same way it was done in 1e: lots of mooks + wandering monsters = dead spellcaster if the spellcaster doesn't save some of his spells. A spellcaster in a world where he can't guarantee the chance to rest & recover spells should never use his last spell. He always needs an ace or two up his sleeve.

Don't pull your punches, and the players will learn to keep a reserve.

In all of these cases, it is useful to have areas where other spells might have been more useful, forcing the players to consider other options.

Scribe Scroll.

I can carry around a number of scrolls and be pretty safe. Scrolls are pretty cheap, too.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Readily available Dispel Magic means that you don't have a low-magic game any more.

I don't buy that. Counter-measures to magic are extremely common in our own (presumably low- or no-magic!) world. They are certainly common enough in low magic fantasy works.

If you really find that you cannot cope with certain spell combinations, by all means remove spells from the game. However, I don't believe that is necessary.

Also, may I point out, putting XP into scrolls can be a liability when you already effectively need twice the XP of the other characters to gain a level. When the wizard or cleric is 5th level, the fighter and rogue are 10th level, and can probably hold their own.

RC