D&D General Unpopular Opinion?: D&D is a terrible venue for horror

jayoungr

Legend
Supporter
I wanted to run a game with powerless PCs who ran from danger, rather than fought
I will say that if this is central to your concept of a horror game, then yes, you're going to have a harder time making it work with D&D than you would with other systems--at least, at first. You'll have to break your players of the expectation of being able to fight the monster. (This is where a good Session 0 can make a huge difference.)

D&D was designed to be a dungeon-crawler.
Waaay back in the 70s. I hate it when people try to say that's all it still is today.
 
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Oofta

Legend
D&D was designed to be a dungeon-crawler. That is its speciality. Adding horror is possible, but not too easy in the higher levels. D&D is about fighting monsters and horror games are about how to survive and even to try stop the monsters before being too late to save innocent lives. Horror games usually are about investigation, and D&D is to be a wargame within dungeons instead to try discover where or who is the monster.
...

Not a comment on whether D&D can do horror (I disagree) but I think D&D stopped being primarily a dungeon crawler a long time ago. Well, at least it did for me and for the majority of games I've played over the last couple of decades. It started out that way and can be a dungeon crawler, but it supports many other styles of play as well. If you go back far enough it was a wargame with special units and unique individuals. So?

Anyway ... carry on. :)
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
Basically we do not know what we do not know. Most people's experience of roleplaying games are either exclusively D&D and its clones like Pathfinder or games that have pretty much the same core play loops. This is not very dissimilar from the way the general public sees all board games as games where you roll dice to see how far around the board you can go,

This article from The Alexandrian goes into this subject in depth.

Here's a quotes that sums up how I feel about this generally :

The Alexandrian said:
“Most of the campaigns I’ve really enjoyed have been in systems I didn’t like.”

“A great GM can take any RPG and run a good game.”

“I just want a system that gets out of the way when I’m playing.”

What I think these players are discovering is that most RPG systems don’t actually carry a lot of weight, and are largely indistinguishable from each other in terms of the type of weight they carry.

In theory, as we’ve discussed, there’s really nothing an RPG system can do for you that you can’t do without it. There’s no reason that we can’t all sit around a table, talk about what our characters do, and, without any mechanics at all, produce the sort of improvised radio drama which any RPG basically boils down to.

The function of any RPG, therefore, is to provide mechanical structures that will support and enhance specific types of play. (Support takes the form of neutral resolution, efficiency, replicability, consistency, etc.) If you look at the earliest RPGs this can be really clear, because those games were more modular. Since the early ’80s, however, RPGs pretty much all feature some form of universal resolution mechanic, which gives the illusion that all activities are mechanically supported. But in reality, that “support” only provides the most basic function of neutral resolution, while leaving all the meaningful heavy lifting to the GM and the players.

To understand what I mean by that, consider a game which says: “Here are a half dozen fighting-related skills (Melee Weapons, Brawling, Shooting, Dodging, Parrying, Armor Use) and here are some rules for making skill checks.”

If you got into a fight in that game, how would you resolve it?

We’ve all been conditioned to expect a combat system in our RPGs. But what if your RPG didn’t have a combat system? It would be up to the GM and the players to figure out how to use those skills to resolve the fight. They’d be left with the heavy lifting.

And when it comes to the vast majority of RPGs, that’s largely what you have: Skill resolution and a combat system. (Science fiction games tend to pick up a couple of additional systems for hacking, starship combat, and the like. Horror games often have some form of Sanity/Terror mechanic derived from Call of Cthulhu.)

So when it comes to anything other than combat — heists, mercantile trading, exploration, investigation, con artistry, etc. — most RPGs leave you to do the heavy lifting again: Here are some skills. Figure it out.

Furthermore, from a utilitarian point of view, these resolution+combat systems are all largely interchangeable in terms of the gameplay they’re supporting. They’re all carrying the same weight, and they’re leaving the same things (everything else) on your shoulders. Which is not to say that there aren’t meaningful differences, it’s just that they’re the equivalent of changing the decor in your house, not rearranging the floorplan: What dice do you like using? What skill list do you prefer for a particular type of game? How much detail do you like in your skill resolution and/or combat? And so forth.

SYSTEM MATTERS

What I’m saying is that system matters. But when it comes to mainstream RPGs, this truth is obfuscated because their systems all matter in exactly the same way. And this is problematic because it has created a blindspot; and that blindspot is resulting in bad game design. It’s making RPGs less accessible to new players and more difficult for existing players.
 
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jayoungr

Legend
Supporter
Basically we do not know what we do not know. Most people's experience of roleplaying games are either exclusively D&D and its clones like Pathfinder or games that have pretty much the same core play loops.
That may be true of casual gamers in general, but I wouldn't assume it's true for the majority of people involved in this discussion.
🤨
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
That may be true of casual gamers in general, but I wouldn't assume it's true for the majority of people involved in this discussion.
🤨
I would. The impact of D&D being so dominate in the market is that most people are really only familiar with D&D or it's close neighbors. The pushback given to any discussion of other games is often rooted in unfamiliarity, largely because the play loops of thise games is pretty different from D&D-esque systems. Heck, pitch "no myth" play and see how far you get!
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Basically we do not know what we do not know. Most people's experience of roleplaying games are either exclusively D&D and its clones like Pathfinder or games that have pretty much the same core play loops. This is not very dissimilar from the way the general public sees all board games as games where you roll dice to see how far around the board you can go,

This article from The Alexandrian goes into this subject in depth.

Here's a quotes that sums up how I feel about this generally :
Hey, @Campbell, you left off the quotes!
 

jayoungr

Legend
Supporter
Well, there's an easy way to find out. How many people in this discussion have only ever played D&D-style games?

I will emphatically say I am not one of them. In fact, my group wouldn't even touch D&D for the first 10 years I played with them, preferring classless point-buy systems. We also regularly play dice-pool systems and dip our toes into genuine indie games multiple times per year--in fact, our most recent game session was Good Society.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Well, there's an easy way to find out. How many people in this discussion have only ever played D&D-style games?

I will emphatically say I am not one of them. In fact, my group wouldn't even touch D&D for the first 10 years I played with them, preferring classless point-buy systems. We also regularly play dice-pool systems and dip our toes into genuine indie games multiple times per year--in fact, our most recent game session was Good Society.
You're pretty exceptional, then.
 

Oofta

Legend
Well, there's an easy way to find out. How many people in this discussion have only ever played D&D-style games?

I will emphatically say I am not one of them. In fact, my group wouldn't even touch D&D for the first 10 years I played with them, preferring classless point-buy systems. We also regularly play dice-pool systems and dip our toes into genuine indie games multiple times per year--in fact, our most recent game session was Good Society.

Which is fair enough as far as it goes and I've been clear that I've primarily played D&D. But I've asked for specifics and while I've gotten some general answers I'm still not seeing much that couldn't be done in D&D. That, and I tend to prefer longer year plus campaigns. Still have a hard time wrapping my head around how you could do that while also constantly losing some resource.

Last, but not least, I do regularly evoke visceral/horror type responses from my players. Not all the time because it would get old, but often enough for my tastes. So I reject that it "can't" be done. I guess I just view it much like in-game politics. I don't need or even necessarily want rules to mechanically replicate it, if I can't do it through story telling and group buy in then mechanics aren't going to make much of a difference.
 

Remathilis

Legend
If you consider CoS as a full horror genre, I must disagree. It does have a horror theme, but, as the characters become stronger, the horror feel starts to erode fast. Especially if the get their hands on the sunsword or even the symbol of Ravenkind.

Agreed. I don't consider Curse of Strahd "horror", it's firmly in Dark Fantasy. Expedition to Castle Ravenloft is even moreso. There are horrific moments in it, but on the whole it's not much more terrifying than say the movie Van Helsing or Netflix's Castlevania. That's not to say their bad, I enjoyed both. Just they didn't even reach the level of some of the old 2e Ravenloft setting stuff.
 

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