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pemerton

Legend
While someone can question my experience of course, I'm going to say Traveller--where one of the two commonest campaign models (the other being merchants) was playing mercenaries is still pretty heavily combat oriented. Nothing I've seen suggests that isn't routinely true about Rolemaster either. I won't speak of the others because I only know them by reputation, but I don't think they change my position in general
In my Classic Traveller campaign, only three PCs are combat-oriented. And only one of them has a suit of powered armour (Battle Dress in the game's terminology). Other PCs are technicians, spies, socialites, etc.

The campaign is neither merchants nor mercenaries, and so perhaps does not count as typical. But it doesn't depart from the core PC build or resolution rules. The resolution rules include, as well as combat, interstellar travel, flying spaceships in normal space, some aspects of on-world travel, social interaction, buying and selling, some aspects of construction and repair, and medicine. Probably the single most common resolution framework that has figured in our play is social. We have had plenty of sessions which do not include combat.

Rolemaster has plenty of combat, although again I have run sessions without combat. But in the first RM campaign I ran, one of the principal contributions from one of the longest-lasting PCs - a mystic - was social and espionage.

In 12 sessions of Torchbearer, 3 have featured no kill, capture or drive-off conflicts at all, and only 2 have included kill conflicts. The most common sorts of conflict are social (negotiate, trickery, convince, convince crowd); again, I think only 3 sessions have not featured any. Of four PCs, only 1 has Fighter as their highest rated skill; they started with Fighter 4. The same character also has Dungeoneer 4, which did not start that high. But the highest rated skills in the party are Loremaster and Scholar (both 5) on a character with Fighter 2.

Prince Valiant, being a fairly light-hearted Arthurian game, features plenty of combat, but of our 3 knight PCs only two are skill in Arms or Battle. The third is social, and physical but not fight-y (a bit like a classic D&D thief). When his player needs to actually win a one-on-one fight, he either hopes to get lucky, or plays a Storyteller Certificate that lets him win without needing to roll.

What distinguishes these systems is that they have robust, binding resolution for non-combat situations. (With RM perhaps as an exception - it's non-combat resolution is not entirely robust; but is not hopeless either.)

I think the poster I was responding to was suggesting balance could include competence in different areas--but even in games that aren't as combat oriented, I don't think that helps much; it just moves around what the important areas are, but I'd be willing to put a substantial bet that games where activities don't heavily lean into one particular area are rare.
I make no comments on what is rare or not rare. But as per my post that you quoted, I don't regard "balance" and "combat" as being especially related - I regard balance as pertaining to the mechanical capacity of the players, by the play of their PCs, to impact the shared fiction of the game.

Part of how Traveller works, at least as I observe it, as that there are sufficiently many different pathways to impact that the wildly varying numbers on the PC sheets (a result of random generation) don't inevitably produce wildly different capacities to impact the shared fiction. Eg even if your PC's Vehicle skill is quite low, if you're the only one who has it it gives you a distinct pathway to impact.

Another dimension of capacity to impact the shared fiction, which I find important in my RPGing, is that the group of PCs is often not just a many-headed hydra; and in such circumstances, the way for a player to try and get the impact that they want is to declare an action for their PC. Upthread someone (maybe @Gradine?) mentioned GM-guided spotlight sharing as an aspect of, or pathway to, balance. I think that players declaring actions for their PCs to get the impact they want as the player-driven counterpart to that.
 




Thomas Shey

Legend
Sure there is. You just draw a line between what WotC is doing with their game, and everyone else.

The problem is, you really can't with the D&D-adjacent. There's too much cross influence. People pop from D&D5e to PF2e and back all the time.

That's not nearly as true once you've drifted farther afield. I can be on a place talking about most game systems and discussion of D&D will rarely come up outside of discussion of the hobby as a whole (where it has too big a footprint to ignore) but in the case of the near-kin, that just won't happen; its always going to be a point of comparison.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
In my Classic Traveller campaign, only three PCs are combat-oriented. And only one of them has a suit of powered armour (Battle Dress in the game's terminology). Other PCs are technicians, spies, socialites, etc.

The campaign is neither merchants nor mercenaries, and so perhaps does not count as typical. But it doesn't depart from the core PC build or resolution rules. The resolution rules include, as well as combat, interstellar travel, flying spaceships in normal space, some aspects of on-world travel, social interaction, buying and selling, some aspects of construction and repair, and medicine. Probably the single most common resolution framework that has figured in our play is social. We have had plenty of sessions which do not include combat.

You do realize that anecdotal counter examples don't really negate my view, right? There are always going to be exceptions, but if they look to me like that's what they are, they aren't, honestly, that relevant.

As I said, its less relevant which of us is right about the focus of Traveler or RM than that they're usually going to have one--and as long as that's the case, its always going to be an uphill fight for characters outside that campaign focal point to feel balanced with those who are within it.
 


Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/they)
I object!


I agree!

I adore JRPGs, but their position on topics like sexuality or gender are often...well...from an other time, to be polite. Especially the older ones from around the 2000'.
Persona 5 was only 7 years ago! It's a game that's highly stylish on the surface (music and art direction are much-praised, to their credit) but under the surface is a game that's pretending to be about something without really being about anything.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
The problem is, you really can't with the D&D-adjacent. There's too much cross influence. People pop from D&D5e to PF2e and back all the time.

That's not nearly as true once you've drifted farther afield. I can be on a place talking about most game systems and discussion of D&D will rarely come up outside of discussion of the hobby as a whole (where it has too big a footprint to ignore) but in the case of the near-kin, that just won't happen; its always going to be a point of comparison.
Perhaps, but it doesn't have to be the most important point, and people don't have to take every WotC release as gospel only to deviated from at great risk.
 

Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix
Persona 5 was only 7 years ago! It's a game that's highly stylish on the surface (music and art direction are much-praised, to their credit) but under the surface is a game that's pretending to be about something without really being about anything.
Already 7 years!?! Did not see that time pass.

Personas tend to be like that: they kinda present themselves as a reflection on some facet of the society, but in the end its pretty empty.

Which is strange, because Digital Devils Saga (another SMT) went more deeply in those themes and never got the fame the Persona line has.
 


Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/they)
Already 7 years!?! Did not see that time pass.

Personas tend to be like that: they kinda present themselves as a reflection on some facet of the society, but in the end its pretty empty.

Which is strange, because Digital Devils Saga (another SMT) went more deeply in those themes and never got the fame the Persona line has.
I'll go so far as to say that Persona is by far the worst SMT sub-series, but pretty much exactly that reason (and, of course, the homophobia)
 



Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/they)
I haven't liked a Final Fantasy game since the last one released for the NES in 1988. And you're standing on my lawn.
Spring Hello GIF by City of Orlando
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
Perhaps, but it doesn't have to be the most important point, and people don't have to take every WotC release as gospel only to deviated from at great risk.

I agree with the second, but then, when you're talking about PF2e or 13A, the only time a new edition of D&D is relevant when someone comes in trying to sell it as the Killer App that's going to make the game at hand irrelevant.

The first, however, is just unrealistic; as long as you have a game closely related to D&D, the comparison most likely to come up is D&D. That's just going to be reality, and I'd frankly learn to live with it.
 


Lanefan

Victoria Rules
This is just smuggling in argument about what a TTRPG is or how they should be played as an argument about balance. I'm here to play a game with rules, and use those rules to do things.
Where I'm here to play a game where the rules get out of the way whenever they can, and only get involved when something needs to be done in the abstract.
 

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