[UPDATED] Out of the Abyss Reviews Have Started Rolling In

I just found one of the first reviews of Out of the Abyss. I thought it could be nice to keep all links to reviews in one thread, so here is the first I found:

http://diehardgamefan.com/2015/09/0...he-abyss-dungeons-dragons-fifth-editiondd-5e/

The previews have been okay, but this review is what has me stoked. This kind of adventure is right up my alley. Can't wait for it to show up!

 

[God]

Because apparently the retail stores didn't want WOTC selling just straight digital copies of what they are selling hardcopies of - at least during the first year or so of the core books. And WOTC has a very tight relationship with the retail stores, more so (due to Magic) than other companies.

That's not an excuse in 2015. I bought (and enjoy buying) print products, but for the past decade I've been referencing .pdfs or an online, hyperlinked SRD that allow me to cut-and-paste relevant stat blocks and other info into my own note files. I don't expect WotC to do everything Paizo has been doing while it ate their lunch the past few years, but they shouldn't be actively regressing to the pre-2000 era of publishing.

 

[Mistwell]

That's not an excuse in 2015. I bought (and enjoy buying) print products, but for the past decade I've been referencing .pdfs or an online, hyperlinked SRD that allow me to cut-and-paste relevant stat blocks and other info into my own note files.

Of course it's an excuse in 2015. The retail stores, who sell physical books and have a strong relationship with WOTC due to Magic, asked their supplier to not sell digital copies of the same thing which would compete with their physical book sales. That's a pretty darn good excuse. You might not LIKE it, but that doesn't make it a bad reason from their perspective. And as their sales have been pretty darn spectacular, it's hard to say they were wrong. They've indicated they will get to it (in some format) but are in no rush to do it in this first year or so of the core books.

I don't expect WotC to do everything Paizo has been doing while it ate their lunch the past few years, but they shouldn't be actively regressing to the pre-2000 era of publishing.

Bad argument - and here is the corollary to demonstrate why: WOTC is now eating Paizo's lunch with 5e, by every metric we know. So now what - do you demand Paizo start doing the things WOTC is doing, and pull the PDFs, because PDFs are pre-5e era of publishing? Of course not - the two businesses use different business models, are in a different phase of their product line schedule, and what works for one might not work for the other.

You liking PDFs is not the same as PDFs being the best business decision for WOTC right now. Paizo having success with PDFs 10 years into their product schedule is not the same as WOTC having a lack of success without PDFs in the first year of their product schedule. You have to grapple with the reality that WOTC is experiencing success without PDFs right now. And you'd have to prove they would have more success in this first year if they also sold PDFs - something you cannot prove right now, and which Paizo (who is doing worse than WOTC right now from all reports, and who does not have the same tighter relationship with retailers that WOTC has, and who is not in their first year of sales of their game) does not prove for you.

It could just be PDFs are not good business for WOTC in the first year or so, but are good business for Paizo right now. Even if you don't like it, and even if you think it's antiquated.

 

[God]

Of course it's an excuse in 2015. The retail stores, who sell physical books and have a strong relationship with WOTC due to Magic, asked their supplier to not sell digital copies of the same thing which would compete with their physical book sales. That's a pretty darn good excuse.

That's not an excuse, it's a reason, and not a very good one. What evidence is there that brick and mortar retail stores are a *significant* source of 5E's success? I'm sure they are selling well at local gaming stores, and while those store owners might argue that sales in an electronic format will hurt them, I've yet to see really compelling evidence that is true, or would meaningfully affect overall sales. Where 5E sales appear to be going gangbusters is on Amazon - which is happy to sell anything it can get its hands on in electronic format and could care less about 20th century print-exclusivity.

They've indicated they will get to it (in some format) but are in no rush to do it in this first year or so of the core books.

Yeah, we've seen what "some format" looks like - e.g. Project Morningfail and the over-priced software being hocked upthread. Reasonably priced ebooks are not a preference, but a standard offering in modern publishing, gaming or otherwise.

Bad argument - and here is the corollary to demonstrate why: WOTC is now eating Paizo's lunch with 5e, by every metric we know.

Nope, the logic failure is on your end. WotC doing well with 5E does not mean Paizo is doing worse - just that the RPG market is expanding, to the tune of 67% or more in sales in 2014. Erik Mona has been on record saying 5E hasn't negatively impacted Paizo's sales, and it certainly hasn't slowed their release schedule (which is one of several reasons I've mostly hopped off the Pathfinder bus).

You have to grapple with the reality that WOTC is experiencing success without PDFs right now ... Even if you don't like it, and even if you think it's antiquated.

More faulty logic. Some success without PDFs doesn't mean there wouldn't be more success with PDFs. And just because it is personally inconvenient to me doesn't mean it's not also a bad business decision. And in a market where damn near every new release hardcover on the New York Times bestseller list is available in an ebook format, it's not my opinion that it is an antiquated business model, it's a fact.

 

[HonorBoundSamurai632]

Hurray! Mike Schley's maps for Out of Abyss are available for purchase on his Zenfolio profile.

And this is my biggest problem with these adventures. I love the fact that WoTC is letting the artists sell the maps they created for the adventures on that particular artist's personal website. My issue is ..... (for instance) the Hoard of the Dragon Queen map pack that Jared Blando is selling, is $75!! You get each map, printed and signed by him. Neat! But that adventure cost $30 and wasn't even a complete storyline. So for my DM'ing style, I would have to spend over $100 for the first half of Tyranny of Dragons .... (because my players and I love maps.) So buy them individually for $2.25 a piece and print them yourself right?

Well I don't have this amazing state-of-the-art printer, and the closest place to me, is an Office Max. So to go there and print them individually, would cost anywhere from $10-almost $20. I know this because I just had them print the 3.5 version of the City of Greyhawk that Mike has on his site. It cost me like 19.60-something. I got the map 18"x24" and laminated (the price on the site includes a light cardboard backing, I didn't get the backing for easier storage.)

For my DM-ing style ..... that's a very expensive adventure!! In comparison, as I said in another post elsewhere .... my wife grabbed me Paizo's Rise of the Runelords Anniversary hardcover for $50, and the map folio for $15. In addition, I recently picked up the Pawn Collection for that adventure for $13!! The whole adventure, ALL the maps, and pawns (every single thing I'd need to run this adventure,) for like $78. OoTA is $50 and if I download Mike's maps for it, (which presently is only 2 maps out of the book for $1.75,) I'm looking at somewhere around $70 for all of that. But I only have 2 maps out of the book.

I made this suggestion before and all the WoTC-lovers ripped me apart for it, but I'd love to see WoTC create map folios for their adventures like Paizo. They borrowed all of Paizo's other marketing strategies, what's one more.

As much as it pains me, because I really do like the new 5th Edition rules, these adventures would drain my pocket too much.
Lastly, it stinks because in the end ..... I'll probably have to buy OotA because I really want the stats on all those Demon Lords .... (same reason I bought RoT .... for Tiamat's stats.)

 

[Henry]

Paizo having success with PDFs 10 years into their product schedule is not the same as WOTC having a lack of success without PDFs in the first year of their product schedule. ...
...It could just be PDFs are not good business for WOTC in the first year or so, but are good business for Paizo right now. Even if you don't like it, and even if you think it's antiquated.

Two points:
1) Paizo was selling PDFs of the PF corebook, and of their Adventure Paths, from 2009 when it debuted onward - it's not something they started doing years into their schedule.
2) If success is a gauge of whether a product doesn't need improvement, take a look at Comcast sometime. Just because I like their products doesn't mean I'm perfectly happy to put in twice as much prep work as almost any other RPG out there. I put up with it, because I enjoy the game, but if I were running a company, it would definitely put up a red flag if one aspect of my product kept coming up in surveys as a negative. Just the Ranger fuss and bother is enough to tell me they're actively listening and looking for ways to improve, but I find it unrealistic to call the lack of PDFs for the 5e products a feature, or as anything but a bug.

 

[Hussar]

More faulty logic. Some success without PDFs doesn't mean there wouldn't be more success with PDFs. And just because it is personally inconvenient to me doesn't mean it's not also a bad business decision. And in a market where damn near every new release hardcover on the New York Times bestseller list is available in an ebook format, it's not my opinion that it is an antiquated business model, it's a fact.

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...-Have-Started-Rolling-In/page12#ixzz3lIaSzvDb

Some success? Umm, if they're single handedly growing the market by 67% (who else is responsible for the growth?), I think it's fair to characterize that as more than "some" success.

And, to be fair, ebooks of novels are a different animal than pdf's. It's extremely hard to read a pdf on anything other than a computer screen or a full blown tablet because pdf's are almost universally two column with lots of art. Trying to read pdf's on an ereader or *shudder* my Iphone 6 is an exercise in eye strain.

 

[God]

WotC basically stopped publishing for, what, two years? If McDonald's runs out of cheeseburgers and french fries for a week, sales on the day they restock are going to see a significant "increase" over the days when they only had salads and fish filets to sell. Some part of that 67 percent likely is an increase over the era when 4E was actively published, but a big chunk is just WotC being open for business again.

 

[Mistwell]

That's not an excuse, it's a reason

Exactly. They have a reason, and it's not an excuse but an actual reason.

and not a very good one. What evidence is there that brick and mortar retail stores are a *significant* source of 5E's success?

ICv2 data for one. For another, I never said they were a source of the success, I said because of Magic and WOTCs ties to their retail stores it's a good reason from their perspective.

and while those store owners might argue that sales in an electronic format will hurt them, I've yet to see really compelling evidence that is true, or would meaningfully affect overall sales.

Doesn't matter. The retailers THINK it's true and that's what matters to WOTC - keeping their retailers happy.

Reasonably priced ebooks are not a preference, but a standard offering in modern publishing, gaming or otherwise.

WOTC is the industry leader, and they're not doing it, so obviously not the industry standard if the industry leader isn't doing it Regardless, "everyone is doing it" isn't a compelling reason in itself.

[cut the stuff about Paizo doing well or worse - it's a non-sequiter and meaningless argument for this topic]

More faulty logic. Some success without PDFs doesn't mean there wouldn't be more success with PDFs.

I already responded to this point before you made it - I even spelled the point out for you to make it clear I was responding in anticipation of it. You cutting that part of the response, then calling my logic faulty for not addressing it, is a total strawman. It was the very next sentence of the same paragraph: "And you'd have to prove they would have more success in this first year if they also sold PDFs - something you cannot prove right now, and which Paizo (who is doing worse than WOTC right now from all reports, and who does not have the same tighter relationship with retailers that WOTC has, and who is not in their first year of sales of their game) does not prove for you." You're the one advocating for change and claiming failure - the burden is on you to demonstrate that.

 

[darjr]

The same reason they are not selling 5e books in PDF is the same reason they didn't sell 4e books in PDF. I think it's independent of their success. I think it's not cool.

 

[Iosue]

Hey guys, do you think we could take the PDF discussion we've had dozens of times before to another thread? It'd be nice if this focused on reporting and discussing reviews of OotA.

Many thanks.