Use of Sense Motive skill: Automatic?

[Sithobi1]

Simple, to make skill ranks more useful, just give them a +1%XP bonus for each skill point they have in each skill. This will not make them USE the skills, but the skills won't be worthless

 

[KarinsDad]

Third of all, if you train your players to chant "Sense Motive! Sense Motive! Sense Motive!" during every important seeming NPC interaction, you have only yourself to blame if the game bogs down.

I don't bother to roll and just say "You sense nothing special". I do this with Search rolls out the ying yang as well.

My players are smart enough and mature enough to not become "I want to roll xyz skill" monkeys (now that I am back to being DM as of last Sunday).

The other aspect of this, especially with Bluff / Sense Motive, is that it detracts from good roleplaying (and really shouldn't be skills in the game anyway). Players should be able to come up with their own ideas, their own suspicions, and their own ways of handling problems without the DM making rolls and handing information to them.

Fourth of all, by the RAW, if the NPC is using the Bluff skill, then the PC gets the Sense Motive roll. Simple as that.

Not necessarily.

If the Bluff DC is so high that the PC cannot overcome the DC, then there is no reason to roll Sense Motive. A roll of 20 is not automatic success for skills.


Also, it is a mistake to use Bluff / Sense Motive for every single conversation as some form of constant lie detector. Virtually everyone prevaricates at some point when they talk, but nobody is really able to know that unless the person is making a semi-outrageous statement, or the person is nervous, or the conversation has gone on for a lengthy period of time and someone has an opportunity to present flaws in "his little white lies" (which should be picked up via roleplaying, not via dice rolls). Even when someone has unusual body language, it might be due to him lying, or it might be because he is late for an appointment.


And in the case of nervousness, a person could appear to be "hiding something" or even lying when he is actually telling the truth (which is not reflected in the Bluff / Sense Motive skills).

So, you shouldn't rely on Bluff / Sense Motive unless the information borders on the outrageous or the suspicious, or the information is critical to the story line.


For example, your Fighter is walking down the road and needs directions and says "I ask the first guy I come across how to get to the tavern". The particular NPC he meets dislikes warrior types and likes playing practical jokes, so he says "Head east down this road" when it should be west.

I don't really consider this a bluff per se. The Fighter is not really expecting the stranger NPC to lie to him, the conversation is short, and there isn't much of an opportunity to discern that this guy might be lying. If the player asks for a Sense Motive, I will give him the roll (with a +5 for being suspicious). But at best, I consider this a Take 10 Bluff where the Fighter's Take 10 Sense Motive with a -5 for believability and another -5 for extremely short conversation is not going to pick up on it. The situation is not critical, the story is not tense at that point, the player of the Fighter is not indicating that he is suspicious of strangers.


Also, nobody is going to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in every conversation unless it is with a close friend or acquaintance. Someone might tell the truth, but they will often be holding stuff back. That means that "according to RAW", you should be rolling Bluff / Sense Motives all of the time and almost half of the time getting "he appears to be hiding something". That's just silly.


It's much better to just use this when the situation is tense, the players are suspicious, or it is critical to the storyline and blow off using it for every conversation where someone might want to not tell everything they know, hide something or tell a little white lie.

This is like Hiding. If you have adequate concealment, Hiding should be extremely easy and really tough to notice. If your lie meshes with the conversations and sounds extremely believable, Bluff should be extremely easy and really tough to discern.


But, following RAW for dice rolling concerning roleplaying conversations is kind of silly unless it is important or unless your players want it to be important. The entire point of roleplaying is so that people can figure stuff out for themselves based on what is presented and have fun doing it. Overuse of Bluff and Sense Motive is the antithesis of good conversational roleplaying. IMO.

 

[Jdvn1]

Also, nobody is going to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in every conversation unless it is with a close friend or acquaintance. Someone might tell the truth, but they will often be holding stuff back. That means that "according to RAW", you should be rolling Bluff / Sense Motives all of the time and almost half of the time getting "he appears to be hiding something". That's just silly.

Of course it is silly. Because you wouldn't use a Bluff check there either. There's a difference between trying to mislead someone and not giving all available information.

 

[KarinsDad]

Of course it is silly. Because you wouldn't use a Bluff check there either. There's a difference between trying to mislead someone and not giving all available information.

Often, not giving all available information IS misleading someone.


"The main road leads to the castle."

can be the truth. But, it can also be a prevarication because what was not said was:

"The dragon guards the main road. The dragon does not guard the side road.".


Do you give a Bluff check for "He is hiding something" or do you not? He told the truth.

 

[Jdvn1]

It's intent. You roll Bluff (and have Bluff rolled against you) when you're trying to Bluff someone. If you're trying to lie or mislead, you roll Bluff and it's opposed by Sense Motive. If not, no roll is necessary.

 

[KarinsDad]

It's intent. You roll Bluff (and have Bluff rolled against you) when you're trying to Bluff someone. If you're trying to lie or mislead, you roll Bluff and it's opposed by Sense Motive. If not, no roll is necessary.

You avoided the question. Were you Bluffing???

"Do you give a Bluff check for "He is hiding something" or do you not? He told the truth."

 

[Jdvn1]

It depends on the intent. If it completely slipped his mind, he wasn't Bluffing. If he actively hid the information about the dragon, then he was Bluffing.

I answered the question, but not directly.

 

[LostSoul]

Also, it is a mistake to use Bluff / Sense Motive for every single conversation as some form of constant lie detector. Virtually everyone prevaricates at some point when they talk

I think it would be a mistake not to let someone with a high Sense Motive skill use it. Give the player the useless information (if that's what it is) because he's made the investment in having a high Sense Motive skill. The player will probably enjoy it.

Of course, if nobody has a high Sense Motive skill, the players probably don't care that much about sensing the ever-changing moods of the duke's daughter, so you could skip it there.

 

[KarinsDad]

It depends on the intent. If it completely slipped his mind, he wasn't Bluffing. If he actively hid the information about the dragon, then he was Bluffing.

I answered the question, but not directly.

So, were you Bluffing or not?


As to intent, his intent could be to test the PC heroes, to kill the PC heroes, to ensure the PC heroes meet the Dragon and gain favor that way, etc.

So, if intent is the criteria, according to what you just said, if my intent is to hide information from you (regardless of my reasons), then I am Bluffing. Unfortunately, people try to hide information for a wide variety of reasons all of the time. This would imply that in the game, you will be making Bluff checks all of the time, often with the odds being in the range of 25% to 75%. To me, this takes away from roleplaying when the "players get a clue from the DM, just because the dice rolled that way".


To me, that is the problem with having Bluff / Sense Motive skills in the game at all. I've played a lot of other game systems where Bluff / Sense Motive skills do not really exist and it makes for self reliance on the part of the players to figure stuff out, not for the DM to hand them information "because the skill says so".


Hence, the reason I draw the line at "if it is outrageous, suspicious, or important (either for the DM, or the players, i.e. the players ask for a roll)" then we roll. Otherwise, we roleplay.

I'd rather roleplay than roll play any day of the week. Roll play kicks you out of the game. It's like watching a movie, seeing a stupid error on the part of the editor, and suddenly realizing you are watching a movie as opposed to being absorbed in the movie.

Roleplay is: "What do you think I am, a gypsy out to get your gold?"

Roll play is: "He seems suspicious to you. You suspect he is lying."

I have this problem with one of my players. He starts out with sentences like: "I introduce myself." and I reply with: "Well then, do so." and I then patiently wait. It then changes to: "Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die. Now, offer me money." or whatever.

 

[KarinsDad]

I think it would be a mistake not to let someone with a high Sense Motive skill use it. Give the player the useless information (if that's what it is) because he's made the investment in having a high Sense Motive skill. The player will probably enjoy it.

I do not disagree.

But again, "if it is outrageous, suspicious, or important (either for the DM, or the player)", not just for every conversation.

That can include misleading the player precisely because his PC has a high Sense Motive skill.

"He seems fishy to you" when the guy is just worried his wife will catch him at the brothel. Sometimes, people can be overly perceptive.