Use Rope Useless?

[The Shaman]

What dex check? Sounds like a balance check or a climb check, depending on whether you walk or hang (or a jump check if it's narrow enough). And either way securing a safety line is a snap when you take 20 on it, and I don't mean snap in the bad way either.

An untrained Balance check is a Dex check.

Using a rope to make a traverse is not the same as rigging a safety line. I disagree that anyone can do it correctly, which is why - *ta-da!* - there's a skill for it.

Is there an echo in here? I'm sure I already said something along the lines of "yeah, that's basically all it's good for"

I was describing some of the in-game examples of the Use Rope skill that I've GM'd, not trying to create a list of unique examples or even "a list of examples that Saeviomagy didn't think of."

So - it's basically not much more than a roleplaying skill then?

When someone starts talking about a skill giving minor benefits to other skills, and that being it's only real benefit, I start seeing the name of the skill in parenthesis after craft, profession or perform.

Lets look at some other skills:

Let's not, for the sake of brevity.

That's how you see it, and if you GM then that's how you run it. I don't agree with a number of your presumptions regarding the use of other skills as substituting for Use Rope, so I use the skill pretty much as written.

To put it mildly, if I can throw together a scheme for doing something in 5 minutes flat, I think that's the sort of thing that a character with a good intelligence and a take 10 can do with confidence. As a guideline, a character with 14 intelligence can reliably create a longbow without having any training as a bowyer. If you can come up with something rope-related that's significantly more complex than that, then there might actually be call for a skill. If what you came up with is an in-game situation, then use rope graduates to being more than just a craft skill. If it's actually a common occurence, then use rope gets to be a full-blown skill instead of being subsumed within other more general skills.

I think that you take a much more liberal approach to making and doing things than I do when I GM. I see a skill like Use Rope in terms of doing things when the character doesn't have the luxury of time, when s/he needs to get it right in a hurry - in other words, those situations when taking twenty is not a viable option. It's an action skill, not an out-of-action skill (or what you would call a roleplaying skill? did I understand you correctly there?)

 

[Starglim]

I could potentially see a use for tying knots in doing unusual things (like time-delay release knots, or knots complex enough to use as a lock etc), but frankly I think that each of those would be under a different skill (craft trapmaking, craft locksmith etc).

I've often thought locking knots would be a great addition to some part of a campaign setting, since I first heard of their use in the real world. What would be the skill for tying one (they are, of course, personalised) with no Rope Use?

Is Use Rope worth making a feat to add the character's DEX and/or INT bonus to the activities that it now benefits? It seems to me about as useful as the various +2/+2 feats (wider application, but has a material requirement). One problem is that the skill would most naturally be used by Experts and Rogues, who have skill points to burn but a limited number of feats.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Heh! And I assume you two are being facetious!

Mark: I'm sure one could do a .PDF on this... What I am NOT sure about is that anyone would want to BUY it! As I said, does it really add anything to the game?

I think most people will be unwilling to add so much knot-lore to their games, simply for the sake of "realism" or versimilitude... But okay, I'll give it 24 hours! (I won't be holding my breath, though!)

Mostly.

There's a level of detail I don't need my game to go to. "I tie off the rope and climb the wall" is sufficient for me -- the "I tie a Swiss seat, secure it to the main with second rope and a Prussik, then two bowlines in the running ends of a third rope, secured in the center to the main line with a Prussik, and use it to ascend the wall" may be detailed and realistic, but just gets in the way. One Use Rope check rather than five ... and though I've done ascents in the way I describe, I'm willing to tolerate a bit of hand-waving.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Using a rope to make a traverse is not the same as rigging a safety line. I disagree that anyone can do it correctly, which is why - *ta-da!* - there's a skill for it.

It's pretty much "tie a rope to something solid at either end and have an extra rope to haul people across with". It's not a big enough niche to warrant a whole skill.

I was describing some of the in-game examples of the Use Rope skill that I've GM'd, not trying to create a list of unique examples or even "a list of examples that Saeviomagy didn't think of."

Hey - you aimed the comment at me when you quoted me. Don't push the button before you work out where the bomb's falling, and don't get annoyed when people send you a polite letter that says "hey, why'd you drop a bomb on us?"

That's how you see it, and if you GM then that's how you run it. I don't agree with a number of your presumptions regarding the use of other skills as substituting for Use Rope, so I use the skill pretty much as written.

So basically it covers sticking two ropes together, tying a knot quickly, binding a prisoner and accurately throwing a grappling hook. Not exactly the broadest specification, nor the most coherent.

Or do you actually treat it how you've said you do earlier, and treat it as "all things rope"?

Like it or not, my summary of what other skills do is accurate to the rules as they are written. Use rope lets you do a very limited number of things with rope. If there was a use wood skill, would you ban people without the skill from any skill use that operated in conjunction with wood? How about use metal?

I think that you take a much more liberal approach to making and doing things than I do when I GM. I see a skill like Use Rope in terms of doing things when the character doesn't have the luxury of time, when s/he needs to get it right in a hurry - in other words, those situations when taking twenty is not a viable option. It's an action skill, not an out-of-action skill (or what you would call a roleplaying skill? did I understand you correctly there?)

I seriously doubt that I can think of a single straightforward scenario where a high skill in use rope would come into play where another, broader skill would not be more effective with the sole exception of tying up a prisoner when you're in a hurry. And even then, buying a set of manacles is likely to be both more effective and quicker.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I've often thought locking knots would be a great addition to some part of a campaign setting, since I first heard of their use in the real world. What would be the skill for tying one (they are, of course, personalised) with no Rope Use?

I don't think that the ability to tie a single, personalised knot would even qualify for skill. Just like signing your name doesn't require you to have forgery. Just like knowing the name of your next door neighbour doesn't require you to have knowledge(local).

Now - forging someone elses knot might fall back to use rope, but I couldn't see myself ever denying a rogue the use of open lock just because this particular lock involves rope... I think that in a world where locking knots are widely used, craft(locksmith) and open locks have to be adjusted appropriately.

And that's the fundamental problem. Every other skill is "you do something". Use rope is "you do stuff that the other skills cover, but you use rope to do it".

That's a pretty cruddy niche for a skill to be in if you ask me.

 

[The Shaman]

*snip*

I'm comfortable with the skill as written and how it's applied in my games - I disagree with your assumptions, but when you're the GM, it's your call to make, as always.

Let's leave it at that.

 

[DonAdam]

We dropped it for Summa Fantasia; just seemed kind of vestigial.

 

[Storyteller01]

So what's the DC of tieing a one-handed bowline around one's waist while falling into a pit of spikes? And assuming you make the check, how much damage do you take?

Couldn't say, but this does bring up another point.

Use rope does not neccesarily have to mean 'tie a knot'. The Australian Repel in a method of wraping a rope around your body to reduce your speed during a desent (spelled wrong). What would the DC be to create a similar wrap around an arm or leg, for the same reason?

Would be faster, and would still require a specific knowlegde.



Going back to military examples, repelling school isn't a one day thing. Your there for an extended period, learning various knots for different situations, quick repairs, etc. One of the tests involved includes having you hang upside down on you own knot, made one handed while on the repelling wall (a useful thieves skill).

Granted, to save time the skill can be rolled into others, but doing so tends to take away from the game. Using some extra details (not all of them) really let's rogues shine in areas other than sneak attacks, especially if your opponents have made extensive preparations for magic.

Example: The castle is covered with detect magic/alarm/evil effect trap combos. No sweat for the repelling rogue and one fly spell (deativated early so he can drop onto the roof).

It may only be a role-playing skill, but it's one with a lot of potential if we think beyond the numbers.