Using a weapon as a Holy Symbol

[Phasolord]

Hi there! my doubt is about using a weapon as an implement and a holy symbol at the same time, weapons like Serpentine Knife of Zannad Accurate dagger or Avandra's Whisper

i want to use an accurate dagger an a holy symbol in the same weapon, i have a monk and i take the multiclass cleric feat to take the Holy Symbol Expertise feat
But here's the doubt, when i check my attack bonus i notice that CB is not taking the +1 to attack rolls for holy symbol when i equip this item.. but if i equip an ordinary holy symbol the CB takes the +1 to the attack..

is this ok ?

 

[Ryujin]

I would say that the problem here, is that the weapon isn't an implement by default. If it was, then it might work the way that you intend.

You need to look at weapons that also double as a holy symbol. Serpentine Knife of Zannad. Weapon of Evil Undone. That sort of thing.

*EDIT* I retract that. A weapon can be an implement for a monk. A bug in CB?

 

[Ferghis]

Hi there!

Welcome!

my doubt is about using a weapon as an implement and a holy symbol at the same time, weapons like Serpentine Knife of Zannad Accurate dagger or Avandra's Whisper

A few classes can use a weapon as an implement. Warlocks and swordmages, for example. And, if you are proficient in any implement (even a weapon as an implement), you can use it for for any implement attack power that you have, no matter what the classes involved are. So if a swordmage multiclasses and takes some cleric implement attack powers, they can use their heavy blade as an implement to attack with those divine powers.

A monk works differently, and if you look around there will be some threads that explain this in detail (and far better than I can). A monk's implement is a ki-focus, which is basically a slotless magic item. So, if you're using the ki-focus to attack, it doesn't matter what weapons or implements are in your hands. It only matters what the ki-focus does. It's basically an item slot that doesn't have to be wielded.

But it sounds like none of this has any bearing on your situation.

i want to use an accurate dagger an a holy symbol in the same weapon, i have a monk and i take the multiclass cleric feat to take the Holy Symbol Expertise feat
But here's the doubt, when i check my attack bonus i notice that CB is not taking the +1 to attack rolls for holy symbol when i equip this item.. but if i equip an ordinary holy symbol the CB takes the +1 to the attack..

is this ok ?

In theory, this should work. You can use the dagger as a holy symbol, and an accurate dagger adds one to its implement attacks, as long as you are proficient in the accurate dagger. I need more details to explain the CB behavior. What item(s) and power are you looking at? What's the total bonus shown, and what are the character's level and relevant ability scores?

My guess is that the CB is not processing the accurate dagger bonus properly. You have a magic weapon that can be an implement to warlocks (accurate dagger) that has a property that defines it also as an implement for clerics. It maybe checking whether you can wield accurate daggers (and returning a negative value, therefore denying the accurate dagger bonus) before reading that the magic item's properties allow you to wield it as a holy symbol. That's just my guess.

Unless you forgot to take a proficiency in the accurate dagger. That could also explain it.

 

[Herschel]

Adding to what Ferghis said: If still not "fixed" take a Swordmage multiclass and see if that "fixes" it. Then try using a standard dagger instead of an Accurate one. That might tell where a potential bug is.

 

[Saagael]

There are several things going on here that muddle up the numbers a bit so let me see if I get this straight:

1) You're a monk, using a dagger as an implement for your attacks (no ki focus).
2) You have an accurate daagger.
3) You have a dagger that can be used as a holy symbol.
4) You have Holy Symbol Expertise.
5) You multiclassed cleric to gain access to holy symbols as implements

So here's what I'm thinking. The first three points are calculated correctly. The problem you're facing (I think, I can't test this in the character builder) is that while the dagger is treated like a holy symbol, the program doesn't pick up on that fact with respect to Holy Symbol Expertise, and so you don't get that benefit of that feat.

The way to test this is to swap out the accurate dagger for a the same, non-accurate, dagger. If the attack bonus of the power goes down by 1, the issue is Holy Symbol Expertise. If the attack bonus stays the same, its an issue with Accurate Implements.

I'd also test the character with an actual holy symbol (not a facsimile) of the same enhancement bonus as the dagger and see if that calculates properly (and see if you can add the accurate benefit to holy symbols, not sure if you can). Let us know what the results are and you'll probably get your answer.

 

[Phasolord]

edited :S

 

[Phasolord]

That's it, i have a monk lvl 8 with this feats:

Lvl 1 - Unarmored Agility
Lvl 2 - Weapon Prof. (parrying dagger)
Lvl 4 - Superior Implement Training (Accurate Dagger)
Lvl 6 - Initiate of the Faith [MC Cleric]
Lvl 8 - Holy Symbol Expertise

my stats at this lvl 10 11 22 10 18 8

and the items in trouble are:

Dynamic Accurate dagger +2 (hit +13)
+6 Dex +4 Half lvl +2 enhancement bonus +1 Sup. Implement Training (accurate)

Serpentine Knife of Zannad Accurate dagger (hit +13, but i think this should be +14)
+6 Dex +4 Half lvl +2 enhancement bonus +1 Sup. Implement Training (accurate)

if i equip a magic holy symbol +2 the CB shows +1 Feat bonus - Holy symbol expertise and the hit is +13..

i think that the CB is not considering the Serpentine Knife of Zannad as a holy symbol.. but the hit must be +14..

 

[Phasolord]

I would say that the problem here, is that the weapon isn't an implement by default. If it was, then it might work the way that you intend.

You need to look at weapons that also double as a holy symbol. Serpentine Knife of Zannad. Weapon of Evil Undone. That sort of thing.

*EDIT* I retract that. A weapon can be an implement for a monk. A bug in CB?

Yeap, i think it's a bug too :\

 

[Phasolord]

My guess is that the CB is not processing the accurate dagger bonus properly. You have a magic weapon that can be an implement to warlocks (accurate dagger) that has a property that defines it also as an implement for clerics. It maybe checking whether you can wield accurate daggers (and returning a negative value, therefore denying the accurate dagger bonus) before reading that the magic item's properties allow you to wield it as a holy symbol. That's just my guess.

Unless you forgot to take a proficiency in the accurate dagger. That could also explain it.

I tried wearing a Serpentine Knife of Zannad dagger (not accurate) and it takes the +1 bonus of Holy Symbol Expertise, so i guess that the CB has problems with the accurate bonus..
i wrote some details of my monk and my bonus btw =)

 

[Saagael]

I tried wearing a Serpentine Knife of Zannad dagger (not accurate) and it takes the +1 bonus of Holy Symbol Expertise, so i guess that the CB has problems with the accurate bonus..
i wrote some details of my monk and my bonus btw =)

I just tested this out in the builder to see for myself what the results are. These are the results I got:

*Normal attack bonus: +12 with a +2 dagger as an implement.
* With Serpentine Knife of Zannad (as holy symbol): +13, including +1 to attack from Holy Symbol Expertise
* With Accurate Serpentine Knife of Zannad (as holy symbol): +13, including +1 to attack from accurate dagger.

So it looks like, and this may or may not be a bug, that when you have the accurate dagger it overrides the "this is a holy symbol" clause and treats it like a dagger. If you don't have the accurate dagger the magic weapon is treated like a holy symbol.

I'd ask your DM, show him some of these replies, and see what he says. My opinion is that the combo should work. You're spending several feats for what is essentially a +1 to attack; I don't think that'll be an issue.