D&D 5E (2024) Using Action Surge to cast spells in 2024

[Teemu]

But you would have to spend the resource when you use the item as a Reaction.

So you can’t use Action Surge to cast a spell on your turn, obviously. If you aren’t casting a spell, the restriction isn’t relevant.

I would argue that “the next combatant moves a muscle” is not a perceptible trigger. You also explicitly take the Reaction allowed by the Ready Action immediately after its trigger. So, if you specified, “another combatant moves,” you would have to wait until after they completed their movement, which would give them the opportunity to make a ranged attack or cast a spell against you before moving. If you specified them attacking, you would only be able to use the Reaction after they had completed the attack.

Doesn’t seem particularly strange to me, no. The Ready Action comes with enough reasonable additional restrictions that I don’t think using it to take an Action you wouldn’t otherwise be able to take on your turn as a Reaction later on is perfectly reasonable. Indeed, that’s kind of the entire point of the Ready Action.

If the perceivable trigger is "that creature moves a muscle" and not "that creature moves", you don't need to wait for them to finish moving. The whole issue is that 5e doesn't have clear restrictions or definitions on what can count as a trigger for the Ready action. There's no limit on specific action types or that it has to be moving, as in spending movement speed. It can literally be, "that creature blinks their eyes twice." That's a perfectly valid trigger in 5e.

Action Surge in 2024 doesn't say you can't cast a spell. It specifically says you can't take the Magic action. That's the reason why I'm bringing up all these magic items. If Action Surge was only meant to limit spells, it would just say you can't cast spells. Instead it prohibits all Magic actions, which include a ton of magic item abilities that are not spells.

Which brings us to the issue of "abusing" the Ready action to bypass Action Surge's limit on the Magic action. I still can't fathom that it would be intended that you can actually use the Magic action by Readying it with Action Surge. Again, you don't lose the charges or uses if the trigger doesn't happen, unlike spells. You don't need to Concentrate. There are no downsides the way you have with spells. Yet, you would rule that Action Surge actually does let you use those magic items despite the very obvious limit on Magic actions?

 

[Charlaquin]

No, it says " If your Concentration is broken, the spell dissipates without taking effect."

But why, exactly, can you just not choose to cast the spell (which you have done "as normal) and let it go off without ever concentrating? Concentration isn't broken here, it never comes up.

I suppose, the only answer here is, because the Ready action doesn't say that. But it doesn't actually say you can't either. The concentration is an add on, for an additional effect.

Point is, your doing everything exactly the same (casting as normal) but just calling it by another name to get around the restriction.

As I said, RAW, I can see your point. But RAI, it's just a no go for me.

Intentionally breaking concentration is still breaking concentration.

 

[mamba]

it’s an action. It’s in the Actions section, and the rules consistently reference and treat it as an Action. Performing it costs the use of your one Action per turn. Regardless of how its rules for resolution may be different than the rules for resolving other Actions, it is in all ways that matter an Action.

it delays your actual action, the one it tells you to choose to actually perform. As I said, you could place its description in the other actions and things would be exactly the same, all that changed is that there is no stand-alone Ready paragraph.

The only way in which it is like an action is that it prevents you from taking another action during your turn, since the action was delayed and became a reaction. If that is the only way that matters, then sure, it is like an action in all ways that matter

 

[Mort]

Intentionally breaking concentration is still breaking concentration.

Not if you never start concentrating - after all, you just cast the spell "as normal," not prepared to cast, not ready to cast, cast.

Again, I see the point, I just don't agree.

 

[Charlaquin]

If the perceivable trigger is "that creature moves a muscle" and not "that creature moves", you don't need to wait for them to finish moving.

I said this before, but maybe you missed it; I don’t consider “that creature moves a muscle” to be a perceptible trigger. It’s too subtle. Though, it may be a moot point if it’s perceptible or not, since you take the Reaction after the trigger, if one did consider it perceptible, I would argue you still can’t take the Reaction to release the spell until after whatever action or movement the monster was moving their muscle as part of has been completed.

The whole issue is that 5e doesn't have clear restrictions or definitions on what can count as a trigger for the Ready action. There's no limit on specific action types or that it has to be moving, as in spending movement speed. It can literally be, "that creature blinks their eyes twice." That's a perfectly valid trigger in 5e.

Well, it falls to DM discretion whether it’s a valid trigger or not. Though blinking eyes twice seems like a risky trigger to pick to me, since there’s no way to guarantee you don’t get attacked and potentially lose concentration before it happens.

Action Surge in 2024 doesn't say you can't cast a spell. It specifically says you can't take the Magic action. That's the reason why I'm bringing up all these magic items. If Action Surge was only meant to limit spells, it would just say you can't cast spells.

Yes, I agree! That, to me, is a point in favor of the interpretation that being able to cast a spell with the Ready Action but not the Magic action is RAI.

Instead it prohibits all Magic actions, which include a ton of magic item abilities that are not spells.

Indeed, it prohibits using the Magic Action to do any of those things, and does not prohibit using the Ready Action to do those things. Since doing so carries additional restrictions that using the Magic Action does not, I am quite comfortable in reasoning that this is not a loophole to avoid an intended restriction, but in fact a different, inherently more restricted behavior that is intentionally not prohibited.

Which brings us to the issue of "abusing" the Ready action to bypass Action Surge's limit on the Magic action. I still can't fathom that it would be intended that you can actually use the Magic action by Readying it with Action Surge. Again, you don't lose the charges or uses if the trigger doesn't happen, unlike spells.

Wait, why wouldn’t you lose the charges if the trigger doesn’t happen? Spending the charges is part of “casting a spell normally” when casting from a magic item, so as I understand it, this must be done when you take the Ready Action and ready to use a magic item.

You don't need to Concentrate.

You don’t need to concentrate to maintain the duration of a spell cast from a magic item. You do need to concentrate to hold onto a spell cast with the Ready Action. These are two different things.

There are no downsides the way you have with spells. Yet, you would rule that Action Surge actually does let you use those magic items despite the very obvious limit on Magic actions?

There are absolutely downsides. It requires concentration until the trigger occurs, and it requires a Reaction in addition to the Action you took to ready it. Exactly like when casting the spell with a Spellcasting class feature.

 

[Charlaquin]

it delays your actual action, the one it tells you to choose to actually perform. As I said, you could place its description in the other actions and things would be exactly the same, all that changed is that there is no stand-alone Ready paragraph.

And as I said, it wasn’t written that way even though it easily could have been, (and even more easily could have been written exactly the same way, in a separate header after the Actions instead of among them) which to me is a strong indication that it is very much intended to be an Action.

The only way in which it is like an action is that it prevents you from taking another action during your turn, since the action was delayed and became a reaction. If that is the only way that matters, then sure, it is like an action in all ways that matter

No, it’s also like an Action in that you can’t do it if you have the Incapacitated Condition. It’s like an Action in that you can take it after using Action Surge. It’s like an Action in the timing with which you’re allowed to perform it. It is consistently treated by the rules as an Action in all ways that the rules care about whether or not something is an Action. Because it’s an Action.

 

[TiQuinn]

The other funny thing about this convo - the PC is a 15th level character. Is it really that big a deal that a character like that casts two spells out of a staff? This is a player looking to be awesome sauce and trying to do something cool that arguably is within the limits of what a 15th level character could conceivably do and in the previous edition, could definitely do within the rules.

 

[Mort]

The other funny thing about this convo - the PC is a 15th level character. Is it really that big a deal that a character like that casts two spells out of a staff? This is a player looking to be awesome sauce and trying to do something cool that arguably is within the limits of what a 15th level character could conceivably do and in the previous edition, could definitely do within the rules.

Maybe, maybe not. At this point in the thread, it's more of a fun theoretical discussion for me.

I will say, being able to cast 2 spells in a round is pretty big.

In one of the games I play, the DM asked me why I'd only been casting a cantrip or some other non-casting action after using quickened spell. I told him because no 2 leveled spells in a round (he's newish to 5e and really new to 5e24). He said that was silly and I can cast 2 leveled spells in a round as long as 1 was a bonus action.

We were "only" 5th level, but the very next encounter made him thoroughly regret that ruling. A few fireball and chromatic orbs (which can be huge now) ruined what he thought was going to be an "epic" fight VERY quickly.

 

[TiQuinn]

Maybe, maybe not. At this point in the thread, it's more of a fun theoretical discussion for me.

I will say, being able to cast 2 spells in a round is pretty big.

In one of the games I play, the DM asked me why I'd only been casting a cantrip or some other non-casting action after using quickened spell. I told him because no 2 leveled spells in a round (he's newish to 5e and really new to 5e24). He said that was silly and I can cast 2 leveled spells in a round as long as 1 was a bonus action.

We were "only" 5th level, but the very next encounter made him thoroughly regret that ruling. A few fireball and chromatic orbs (which can be huge now) ruined what he thought was going to be an "epic" fight VERY quickly.

I look at that as a try it and see scenario. The learning from the ruling is part of the experience, and reasonably there should be space to say “Hey, I misjudged the impact and need to walk this back.” I think that’s a good, healthy discussion that benefits everyone at any given table when it happens.