D&D 5E (2024) Using Action Surge to cast spells in 2024

[Seramus]

@Charlaquin @ECMO3
If you're under the effect of Befuddlement, which says,
"can’t cast spells or take the Magic action"

"Can't cast spells" probably negates "you cast it as normal" no matter what side of the discussion you are on.

 

[Maxperson]

You do make sense @Charlaquin

But here's why I think it's rules-lawyery: it doesn't in any way concern itself with the fiction. Its only concern is the rules. You cast it as normal, meaning your character makes the same moves, says the same words, as if you were taking a Magic action. It's the exact same thing in the fiction. You're just waiting a bit for the release. And if you can't do all this stuff as a Magic Action, then you can't do all this stuff as a Ready Action either, because both describe the exact same thing in the fiction. So, to me, that's just playing the rules, not the game. Not the fiction. Hence, the rules-lawyery thing.

In post #433 we can see how WotC words it when they use a different action to also allow spellcasting. In the example we see a completely different Magic Action also allowing a spell to be cast as a part of it, instead of it being a separate Magic Action.

If Ready Action was not using a separate Magic Action to cast the spell, they would have used that language in Ready Action as well. The folks who want it to not be two separate actions have ignored that post, through.

 

[Maxperson]

Ok, I think I understand your point of view. However, that brings us again to Rogues, who are explicitly allowed to Ready an attack in an attempt to use their Sneak Attack more than 1/turn. I feel that's at the very least, a very similar situation.

How are they explicitly allowed to sneak attack when it's not their turn? What is the wording?

 

[pemerton]

Nope.
I have never seen an RPG define everything.

Show me the RPG that tells you how often your character needs to use the bathroom or get penalties.
Tell me which RPG explains how children spring into existence.

Show me the RPG that explains gravity correcty, ballistc curves, correctly.

You can't have an RPG that perfectly explains the laws of biology or physics. It won't fit in any RPG book.

A RPG doesn't have to explain the laws of biology or physics to not have "edge cases".

Of RPGs I'm familiar with, I don't think Agon 2e or Prince Valiant have edge cases in the way that D&D does.

 

[Teemu]

"Can't cast spells" probably negates "you cast it as normal" no matter what side of the discussion you are on.

Yes but my question is about the Magic action as it relates to using magic items that don't cast spells. It's about how the Ready action is read and interpreted by those who support its use despite other factors limiting the Magic action.

 

[pemerton]

So, to summarize once more, it's just horrible wording. Even without taking the rules of readying a spell specifically into account.

"You take the Ready action to wait for a particular circumstance before you act. To do so, you take this action on your turn, which lets you act by taking a Reaction before the start of your next turn.

First, you decide what perceivable circumstance will trigger your Reaction. Then, you choose the action you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose to move up to your Speed in response to it..."

The rules explicitly call Ready an action. It's an action you take on your turn. Of which you only get one. But then in response to the trigger, you get to take a different action (or non-action, in the case of movement) using your Reaction.

I mean, what?!

Yes, I made this point upthread. 4e is similar.

It would have been so much easier to say something like this:

"You may choose to Ready your action (or the ability to move up to your speed). Doing so allows you to take the action as a Reaction in response to a set trigger, which must be a perceivable circumstance."

But then Ready isn't an action in itself; and it has to be described as something you do in lieu of taking an action.

 

[mamba]

"Can't cast spells" probably negates "you cast it as normal" no matter what side of the discussion you are on.

they are not casting spells though, they take the Magic action with an item and replace the Magic action with the Ready action

 

[pemerton]

Why does being fully consistent with the tilts for casting times matter? Specific beats general.

"Specific beats general" is a principle for establishing hierarchies of norms. Not for varying, or departing from, lists and definitions.

Well, in this case, what you’re Readying is releasing a spell. Again, the text of the Ready Action clearly lays out how this works, in specific exception to how you Ready things other than casting a spell.

The "clearly laying out" isn't a way of changing the action economy, though. It's a way of making readying a spell more "burdensome" than (say) readying an attack, or movement - @BenjaminPey has set this out nicely not too far upthread.

Yes, I understand that your interpretation relies on “cast the spell as normal” meaning “cast the spell using the Magic Action.”

No it doesn't. It relies on the fact that (i) what is readied is an action, even though (ii) it is also (typically) performed as a Reaction, and further that in the case of casting a spell (iii) the readied action is performed partly on the character's turn ("casting the spell as normal") and partly as a Reaction ("releasing the held energy"). If readying a spell did not involve (iii) but was handled in the same way as 4e does it, then it would be an action performed as a Reaction (and so would be the Magic action). Stretching out the action over the character's turn plus their reaction (as per (iii)) doesn't change this, in my view.

But this interpretation also involves you using two Actions on your turn, and you don’t have two Actions to spend.

This is my point. The Reaction from Readying an action also involves performing an action. When a spell is readied, that action is "stretched out" to the detriment of the character, as per (iii) above. But there is still the readied action being performed. Which is, in this case, the Magic action.

Except in the specific case that you’ve used your one action a turn to perform the Ready Action, which then instructed you to cast a spell with a casting time of 1 Action as part of its effect. Clearly in that case the 1 Action can only have been the Ready Action.

I don't agree. The Ready Action has the character perform another action - the readied action. Hence why, as I said, the readied action does permit - indeed, it requires - taking a second action on your turn, when what you are readying is the release of a spell whose energy you hold after casting it.

(A further consideration here is that you are implying that it is a type of "power up" in using two actions on the one turn - whereas it is your interpretation that involves the power up, by separating the casting of a spell from its normal context that brings with it various limitations, such as not being able to be done by way of Action Surge.)

 

[Charlaquin]

So, to summarize once more, it's just horrible wording. Even without taking the rules of readying a spell specifically into account.

"You take the Ready action to wait for a particular circumstance before you act. To do so, you take this action on your turn, which lets you act by taking a Reaction before the start of your next turn.

First, you decide what perceivable circumstance will trigger your Reaction. Then, you choose the action you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose to move up to your Speed in response to it..."

The rules explicitly call Ready an action. It's an action you take on your turn. Of which you only get one. But then in response to the trigger, you get to take a different action (or non-action, in the case of movement) using your Reaction.

I mean, what?! It would have been so much easier to say something like this:

"You may choose to Ready your action (or the ability to move up to your speed). Doing so allows you to take the action as a Reaction in response to a set trigger, which must be a perceivable circumstance."

Then you can add, if you want, the special language that says "Readying a Magic Action to cast a spell requires your concentration. If you lose concentration before the trigger resolves, the spell has no effect and the spell slot is lost. If the trigger does not resolve before the start of your next turn, or you elect not to take it, the spell slot is lost."

Instead we have the rules telling us that Ready is an action (right there in the text), that to Ready a spell you have to cast the spell "normally" (which should take a separate Magic action, which you don't have access to), and the effect of the spell is resolved in response to the trigger as a Reaction.

Now people in this thread have postulated something to the effect of "No, you see, Ready isn't an action, it's just a special way to use an action"*, which makes sense, and they could have easily worded it that way, as I did above. But instead they chose to come out and call Ready an Action.

Or, alternately, that Readying a Spell is a completely different beast entirely, that uses the Magic Action and delays it's effect until your Reaction is used, despite the only evidence to support this interpretation* are the words "cast the spell normally".

**Other than common sense, but that, sadly, isn't evidence. There are plenty of examples where the people who write this game have shown a complete lack of common sense with regards to their own rules. I'm not saying, btw, that we shouldn't use common sense! We absolutely should! But it's what leads to this impasse because nobody can be positive they know what the rules are saying. Only what they believe they are/should be saying.

Again, I think Ready is intended to be an Action. The interpretation gets a lot cleaner when you accept that this is the case.

 

[Charlaquin]

You do make sense @Charlaquin

But here's why I think it's rules-lawyery: it doesn't in any way concern itself with the fiction. Its only concern is the rules.

Because it’s a question about the rules. Moreover, the fiction is malleable. You can always come up with a fictional explanation of what the mechanics dictate, because it’s all make-believe. But the rules are concrete. You can change them if you want to, but they say what they say.