D&D 5E (2024) Using Action Surge to cast spells in 2024

[Charlaquin]

You can take reactions on your own turn actually. So it is possible to use two actions in one turn.
Actually, if I read it right, you can start your turn with ready as an action, set the trigger to "attack, if I see an enemy when I move around the wall"...
By your interpretation, a fighter can use action surge, ready a spell (from my wand, not using a slot), with the trigger: "if I see an enemy being hit by my other spell" to blast twice in the same turn...

Clarification: I didn’t say and don’t believe you can’t use Reactions on your own turn. I said Reactions are the only way to act off-turn, and they always have a specific triggering condition and an effect you can spend a reaction to do in response to that trigger. If that trigger happens to occur on your turn, nothing prevents you from spending your reaction to do that effect then. This is in contrast to Actions (and Bonus Actions for that matter), which you can only do on your own turn. (In my reading; yes I know you disagree)

I do not. I followed the playtest. The first rewording was listong specific actions, clearly missing the spellcasting action and I think alsp the ready action.

Oh! I had forgotten about that, but if the older playtest version didn’t include the Ready Action in the list of actions it allowed you to take, that would be a major smoking gun as to their intent in this matter IMO. Are those older UAs still accessible? This would be very convincing to me if true!

It certainly lools like a loophole to me. I would just not begrudge you if you don't see it as a loophole. I just would not allow it.
Why: because if I as a DM use such loopholes I would feel bad.

I'd rather have both sides agree to gentleperson rules to not search for loopholes and certainly not plan to use them in the middle of a session. If it comes up spontanely, I'd let it even work once. And then we will talk about that later.

Again, I object to the characterization of this as a loophole. If it feels like one to you, by all means, disallow it. But just because a player thinks the rules allow this, doesn’t mean they went looking for a loophole. It might just be something they, like I, think the rules plainly and straightforwardly say is possible.

 

[Charlaquin]

But your interpretation of the Ready action is that you can't take the Magic action with the Ready action since that would be 2 actions.

You’re still conflating Action-as-thing-you-do with action-as-resource. You only have one action-as-resource to spend to perform an Action-as-thing-you-do. Ready (in my understanding) costs an action-as-resource and allows you to perform an Action-as-thing-you-do by spending a reaction-as-resource in response to a trigger instead of spending an action-as-resource to do it on your turn. So, it can’t allow you to perform the Magic Action-as-thing-you-do on your turn, because that would require an action-as-resource, which you would already have spent on Ready. Instead, it makes performing the necessary components and paying the necessary costs for the spell part of the Ready Action-as-thing-you-do, and then makes actually applying the spell’s effects the Action-as-thing-you-do in response to a trigger by spending a reaction-as-resource.

So how do you then reconcile the idea that you're taking a Magic action as a Reaction? If Magic action can be a "subordinate" action within a Reaction, could it not also be that during the Ready action you take during your turn?

When you Ready using the Magic Action to do something other than cast a spell, you do that Action-as-thing-you-do (the Magic Action) by spending a reaction-as-resource, instead of an action-as-resource. There is no conflict with the action-as-resource you spent on your turn to perform the Ready Action-as-thing-you-do.

 

[Charlaquin]

Why? Why can't it just be a special way to take an action?

It could be, it just isn’t.

 

[Charlaquin]

Oh! I had forgotten about that, but if the older playtest version didn’t include the Ready Action in the list of actions it allowed you to take, that would be a major smoking gun as to their intent in this matter IMO. Are those older UAs still accessible? This would be very convincing to me if true!

Follow-up: they are still accessible, and it allowed Attack, Dash, Disengage, and Dodge. So, I think that’s enough evidence to convince me that this interaction with Ready was probably an oversight. I stand by my belief that the interaction is a natural product of the system working the way it’s supposed to, and that allowing it wouldn’t cause any real problems. But the designers probably didn’t think about it and might have worded the restriction differently if they had.

 

[Teemu]

You’re still conflating Action-as-thing-you-do with action-as-resource. You only have one action-as-resource to spend to perform an Action-as-thing-you-do. Ready (in my understanding) costs an action-as-resource and allows you to perform an Action-as-thing-you-do by spending a reaction-as-resource in response to a trigger instead of spending an action-as-resource to do it on your turn. So, it can’t allow you to perform the Magic Action-as-thing-you-do on your turn, because that would require an action-as-resource, which you would already have spent on Ready. Instead, it makes performing the necessary components and paying the necessary costs for the spell part of the Ready Action-as-thing-you-do, and then makes actually applying the spell’s effects the Action-as-thing-you-do in response to a trigger by spending a reaction-as-resource.

When you Ready using the Magic Action to do something other than cast a spell, you do that Action-as-thing-you-do (the Magic Action) by spending a reaction-as-resource, instead of an action-as-resource. There is no conflict with the action-as-resource you spent on your turn to perform the Ready Action-as-thing-you-do.

In that case, could you Ready the following with Action Surge:

Cubic Gate

The cube has 3 charges and regains 1d3 expended charges daily at dawn. As a Magic action, you can expend 1 of the cube’s charges to cast one of the following spells using the cube.

Gate. Pressing one side of the cube, you cast Gate, opening a portal to the plane of existence keyed to that side.

Plane Shift. Pressing one side of the cube twice, you cast Plane Shift, transporting the targets to the plane of existence keyed to that side.

Dark Shard Amulet

Unknown Spell. As a Magic action, you can try to cast a cantrip that you don’t know. The cantrip must be on the Warlock spell list and have a casting time of an action, and you make a DC 10 Intelligence (Arcana) check. On a successful check, you cast the spell. On a failed check, the spell fails, and the action used to cast it is wasted. In either case, you can’t use this property again until you finish a Long Rest.

Cape of the Mountebank

This cape smells faintly of brimstone. While wearing it, you can use it to cast Dimension Door as a Magic action.

Chime of Opening

As a Magic action, you can strike the chime to cast Knock.

Cube of Summoning

When you wind its crank as a Magic action, a merry tune emits from the box, the lid pops open, a creature appears in the nearest unoccupied space, and the lid closes. The lid can’t otherwise be opened.

Roll on the Cube of Summoning table to determine which spell the cube casts to summon the creature. The spell is cast at level 5 (save DC 17, +9 attack bonus) and doesn’t require Concentration, but you otherwise function as the spell’s caster.

Once the cube summons a creature, the cube can’t do so again until the next dawn.

 

[Charlaquin]

In that case, could you Ready the following with Action Surge:

Cubic Gate


Dark Shard Amulet


Cape of the Mountebank


Chime of Opening


Cube of Summoning

Yes. That is the premise raised in the opening post - a player using Action Surge to Ready casting a spell from a magic item, and my position is that this is allowed by the rules.

Not, you do have to spend the charge on your turn and maintain concentration until the specified trigger occurs, at which point (if you haven’t already lost concentration) you must spend your reaction-as-resource to release the spell.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Clarification: I didn’t say and don’t believe you can’t use Reactions on your own turn. I said Reactions are the only way to act off-turn, and they always have a specific triggering condition and an effect you can spend a reaction to do in response to that trigger. If that trigger happens to occur on your turn, nothing prevents you from spending your reaction to do that effect then. This is in contrast to Actions (and Bonus Actions for that matter), which you can only do on your own turn. (In my reading; yes I know you disagree)

Oh! I had forgotten about that, but if the older playtest version didn’t include the Ready Action in the list of actions it allowed you to take, that would be a major smoking gun as to their intent in this matter IMO. Are those older UAs still accessible? This would be very convincing to me if true!

Again, I object to the characterization of this as a loophole. If it feels like one to you, by all means, disallow it. But just because a player thinks the rules allow this, doesn’t mean they went looking for a loophole. It might just be something they, like I, think the rules plainly and straightforwardly say is possible.

Maybe loophole is connoted more negatively to you than I mean it.

 

[Charlaquin]

Maybe loophole is connoted more negatively to you than I mean it.

Loophole implies a thing that you aren’t supposed to be able to do, but under some technicality you’ve managed to get away with doing anyway. I don’t see this as a loophole because (in my interpretation) it’s just straightforwardly allowed. Even if you don’t agree, I think my interpretation is one that could easily be arrived at from an unmotivated natural reading of the rules, not necessarily from a desire to circumvent a limitation.

 

[Teemu]

Yes. That is the premise raised in the opening post - a player using Action Surge to Ready casting a spell from a magic item, and my position is that this is allowed by the rules.

Not, you do have to spend the charge on your turn and maintain concentration until the specified trigger occurs, at which point (if you haven’t already lost concentration) you must spend your reaction-as-resource to release the spell.

So that then does mean that Action Surge technically reads, "On your turn, you can take one additional action, except the Magic action, unless you also spend your Reaction." Because you can still use Magic action items and spells with Action Surge as long as it takes place outside your turn, right?

Why would they even have a limit on Action Surge in the first place if it's so trivial to bypass that restriction? There's already been a lot of talk on how permissive 5e is with the Reaction trigger. There are no hard and fast rules on it apart from it being a perceivable thing that happens in the world. So, for example, if Ally PC 1 goes right after you in the initiative order, you could make the trigger something super obvious and easy that your ally does immediately after you. Or, if it's an enemy, simply say that the enemy takes 1 step, in the case of a melee enemy that isn't in melee range of anyone yet. Or any other very perceivable and obvious trigger.

Edit: Also of course it becomes very strange if you do something like this:

I use Action Surge to Ready the Cube of Summoning Magic action, and the trigger is when Enemy 1 attacks me. Then I move out of Enemy 1's reach.

Enemy 1 takes the Opportunity Attack. Reaction trigger occurs, but it's still my turn, so I can't use the Cube of Summoning because it's still my turn and it's a Magic action?

 

[Charlaquin]

So that then does mean that Action Surge technically reads, "On your turn, you can take one additional action, except the Magic action, unless you also spend your Reaction."

No. Because with the Ready Action you aren’t taking the Magic Action on your turn.

Because you can still use Magic action items and spells with Action Surge as long as it takes place outside your turn, right?

Right, because Action Surge prevents using the Magic Action on your turn. If you’re using it on someone else’s turn, there’s no conflict with the restriction.

Why would they even have a limit on Action Surge in the first place if it's so trivial to bypass that restriction? There's already been a lot of talk on how permissive 5e is with the Reaction trigger. There are no hard and fast rules on it apart from it being a perceivable thing that happens in the world. So, for example, if Ally PC 1 goes right after you in the initiative order, you could make the trigger something super obvious and easy that your ally does immediately after you. Or, if it's an enemy, simply say that the enemy takes 1 step, in the case of a melee enemy that isn't in melee range of anyone yet. Or any other very perceivable and obvious trigger.

Because the point of the restriction on Action Surge is to limit what you can do with your Action Surge action, not what you can do with your reaction. Readying to do something as a reaction is materially different than doing it as an action. It costs an additional resource, and in the case of casting a spell it costs two additional resources, both of which are extremely limited and highly valuable. If you’re doing this, you aren’t maintaining concentration on Haste or some other buff spell, and you aren’t making an opportunity attack. Two of the strongest things an Eldritch Knight fighter could be spending their limited action economy on. Even before considering the risk of being interrupted before the trigger happens, this is significantly less powerful than just using your Action Surge to cast a second spell.