D&D 5E (2024) Using Action Surge to cast spells in 2024

[BenjaminPey]

That doesn’t answer the question. A Fighter can cast a spell and then attack. But they can’t attack and then cast a spell. What’s the in-fiction reason for that?

Oh but they can! Action surge doesn't ask you to take first your standard action, then the action surge. You can totally put them in any order you wish. Action surge and its restriction are there to say "well, in the fiction, fighters are so good at fighting they sometimes can act very fast, but only to do fighty things, like attacking or dodging, not casting spells". They don't say anything about any order. See: You can push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment. On your turn, you can take one additional action, except the Magic action.

You can take one additional action. Whenever you wish on your turn. So you can action surge attack, then cast a spell. The fiction is preserved: you're mostly good at fighting.

And to be clear, I'm not saying you're looking for a loophole, here, or that you're arguing in bad faith. I just say that explicitly choosing a dud trigger, like "when the ennemy blink", or "when the ennemy moves" when you're already in combat and they will obviously move, just so you can circumvent the rule, that would be exploiting a loophole, in my view (and maybe you don't agree, and that's fine, I'm sure we could come to an agreement during a game). And I'm mostly fine with rules who don't bend over backwards to close this loopholes when it would be super cumbersome to do so and just rely on the shared fiction to do the heavy lifting.

 

[ECMO3]

@Charlaquin

Sorry I made an edit on my post, which is here:

I use Action Surge to Ready the Cube of Summoning Magic action, and the trigger is when Enemy 1 attacks me. Then I move out of Enemy 1's reach.

Enemy 1 takes the Opportunity Attack. Reaction trigger occurs, but it's still my turn, so I can't use the Cube of Summoning because it's still my turn and it's a Magic action?

That's a weird situation that happens when you allow Readying a Magic action with Action Surge. It sounds so bizarre to me that it's okay if the Reaction happens outside your turn, but if it's during your turn, it's not okay anymore.

According to the rules you can not take more than one action on your turn. This is strongly implied in the section labeled "one thing at a time" and explicitly stated in the section in combat labeled "your turn":

"On your turn, you can move a distance up to your Speed and take one action. You decide whether to move first or take your action first. The main actions you can take are listed in "Actions" earlier in this chapter."

As a result you can use a Reaction on your turn only if that reaction does not cause you to take more than one of the "main actions".

For example a Ranger with Interception can use a reaction to reduce the damage of an attack. "Reduce the damage" is not an action as defined, so he could do this in addition to an action on his turn. He could for example Dodge as an action and then if he gets hit with an AOO reduce the damage as a reaction.

The same Ranger can not for example Ready an action to shoot the first orc he sees (attack action) and then if he sees an orc before his turn is over use that reaction because that would be two actions in a single turn (Ready and Attack).

Obviously Action Surge and Haste are specific exceptions to that.

 

[ECMO3]

Pull a level seems to be use an object. Or a free interaction woth the enviroment.

Free interaction and use an object are not the verbiage in 2024, it is interact and Utilize. According to the text "you interact with an object while doing something else" and this is what I think pulling a lever would typically be, interacting just like opening a door or climbing down a ladder.

If for some reason the lever actually required a Utilize action to pull it on your turn then it would be the Utilize action you would be using off turn, but I don't think that would be typical.

 

[Charlaquin]

Pull a level seems to be use an object. Or a free interaction woth the enviroment.

But yeah. Ready action is somehow not very well written.

If it was me, I'd instead reintroduce the delay action. But with a trigger.

Instead of acting, you delay your whole turn until a teigger occurs. You take your whole action later. And your initiative goes down to that point.
If the trigger never happens, you forfeit your whole turn.

We would have way less problems.

Maybe I will try it out some day.

I actually much prefer Ready to Delay, specially because it doesn’t just postpone your whole turn. It only allows you to postpone a single action, you must choose a (missable) trigger to postpone it to, and it costs an additional resource in addition to your action. This is good, in my opinion. It’s your turn, do something, or if you insist on waiting, at least commit to what you’re waiting for, what you’ll do when it happens, and pay the opportunity cost for waiting when it was go-time. But that’s me, I have pet peeves about people fighting tooth and nail to avoid having to commit to action in D&D.

 

[Charlaquin]

Oh but they can! Action surge doesn't ask you to take first your standard action, then the action surge. You can totally put them in any order you wish. Action surge and its restriction are there to say "well, in the fiction, fighters are so good at fighting they sometimes can act very fast, but only to do fighty things, like attacking or dodging, not casting spells". They don't say anything about any order. See: You can push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment. On your turn, you can take one additional action, except the Magic action.

You can take one additional action. Whenever you wish on your turn. So you can action surge attack, then cast a spell. The fiction is preserved: you're mostly good at fighting.

And to be clear, I'm not saying you're looking for a loophole, here, or that you're arguing in bad faith. I just say that explicitly choosing a dud trigger, like "when the ennemy blink", or "when the ennemy moves" when you're already in combat and they will obviously move, just so you can circumvent the rule, that would be exploiting a loophole, in my view (and maybe you don't agree, and that's fine, I'm sure we could come to an agreement during a game). And I'm mostly fine with rules who don't bend over backwards to close this loopholes when it would be super cumbersome to do so and just rely on the shared fiction to do the heavy lifting.

Oh, I see. Well, on that matter, I actually agree with you. But, there, I think the flaw being exploited is not the interaction between Ready and Magic, but the lack of any criteria for what you are or aren’t allowed to choose as a trigger. Personally, I wouldn’t accept “the enemy blinks” or “the enemy moves a muscle” or whatever as a trigger for a Readied action. I’d rule that’s too subtle to constitute a “perceivable circumstance” in a combat scenario. You have to choose a distinct and obvious event. “An enemy moves” would be acceptable, but since you take the reaction after the triggering event, you would have to wait until they complete their movement on the battlefield not just cast your spell the instant they make any motion.

 

[Charlaquin]

Free interaction and use an object are not the verbiage in 2024, it is interact and Utilize. According to the text "you interact with an object while doing something else" and this is what I think pulling a lever would typically be, interacting just like opening a door or climbing down a ladder.

If for some reason the lever actually required a Utilize action to pull it on your turn then it would be the Utilize action you would be using off turn, but I don't think that would be typical.

I hate that they still define “interacting” and limit it to once per turn. In my opinion, if it’s a necessary part of some other action or movement, like pulling a lever as part of Utilize, drawing a weapon as part of Attack, or opening a door as part of moving from one room to another, you should just get it for free, and the limitation on number of actions and distance of movement per turn should be enough limitation without also saying you only get one interaction per turn. If it’s too distinct to be reasonably interpreted as part of another action, it shouldn’t be free, it should be an Action, like Utilize.

 

[BenjaminPey]

Oh, I see. Well, on that matter, I actually agree with you. But, there, I think the flaw being exploited is not the interaction between Ready and Magic, but the lack of any criteria for what you are or aren’t allowed to choose as a trigger. Personally, I wouldn’t accept “the enemy blinks” or “the enemy moves a muscle” or whatever as a trigger for a Readied action. I’d rule that’s too subtle to constitute a “perceivable circumstance” in a combat scenario. You have to choose a distinct and obvious event. “An enemy moves” would be acceptable, but since you take the reaction after the triggering event, you would have to wait until they complete their movement on the battlefield not just cast your spell the instant they make any motion.

But choosing a dud criterium is not a problem if you're not trying to do something you're not supposed to do! Saying "I attack him as soon as he blinks" has the exact same effect as "I attack him now." So maybe it's bad form, but it's inconsequential.

Readying an action you're not supposed to do, and on a dud criterium on top, on the other hand...

 

[Charlaquin]

But choosing a dud criterium is not a problem if you're not trying to do something you're not supposed to do! Saying "I attack him as soon as he blinks" has the exact same effect as "I attack him now." So maybe it's bad form, but it's inconsequential.

Not necessarily. There may be something preventing you from attacking now, and if there was, the problem would be with the criteria. Just because dud criteria can be unproblematic in some circumstances doesn’t mean they aren’t the root of the problem (such as it is) with using Ready to circumvent action restrictions. Doing something with nonstandard timing is the entire point of the Ready Action, and it costs additional resources and carries a risk of missing your timing window specifically to balance out that ability to perform actions with nonstandard timing. That it is possible to choose criteria that could conceivably eliminate the risk of missing the timing window is a problem with the lack of restrictions on selectable criteria, not a problem with the fundamental concept of a mechanic that lets you perform actions with nonstandard timing.

Readying an action you're not supposed to do, and on a dud criterium on top, on the other hand...

You’re never supposed to do Actions when it isn’t your turn. The entire function of Ready is to enable you to do Actions when you’re not supposed to be able to do them.

 

[Xetheral]

But choosing a dud criterium is not a problem if you're not trying to do something you're not supposed to do! Saying "I attack him as soon as he blinks" has the exact same effect as "I attack him now." So maybe it's bad form, but it's inconsequential.

Readying an action you're not supposed to do, and on a dud criterium on top, on the other hand...

I question whether casting a spell via Action Surge is truly "something you're not supposed to do" when the fighter subclass Eldritch Knight gives an easy way to do just that via Improved War Magic.

 

[pemerton]

the Ready Action does say you use the Action you ready in response to the chosen trigger as a Reaction. Just because you’re spending a Reaction to use the Magic Action in response to a trigger rather than spending an Action to do it on your turn, doesn’t mean you aren’t taking the Magic Action.

The Ready Action does not specifically say you get a second Action on your turn.

Nor does it specifically say that a <thing that I have my PC do> is both a Reaction and an action having a category (such as Attack, Magic, etc). It leaves that to be inferred.

And the idea of "spending" a Reaction to use an action is not set out in the rules either. Eg when a player has their PC cast a Shield spell, they are not "spending" a Reaction to use an action (such as the Magic action). They are just using a Reaction. The rules text on Reactions is itself unclear about this:

Certain special abilities, spells, and situations allow you to take a special action called a Reaction. A Reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind, which can occur on your turn or on someone else’s. The Opportunity Attack, described later in this chapter, is the most common type of Reaction.

When you take a Reaction, you can’t take another one until the start of your next turn. If the reaction interrupts another creature’s turn, that creature can continue its turn right after the Reaction.​

According to this, a Reaction is a special action that you take. But according to the Readying rules text, when you take your Reaction you perform your readied action - which is not, itself, a Reaction but something like an Attack of the release of held spell energy.

This is why I say that the rules aren't drafted with sufficient technical precision to yield an answer by close reading. An answer has to be inferred from text and context.

So, again, we’re bumping up against the problem of the word “action” being used both as the name of a resource you spend to do things on your turn, and the name of the things you spend that resource to do. In my understanding, the Ready Action costs one use of the resource called an “action,” and for that cost allows you to perform an Action off-turn, by spending a different resource, called a “reaction.” It doesn’t allow you to “take a second action,” it gives you a way to perform an Action that doesn’t require spending an action (the resource).

In the case of casting a spell, the Ready Action has to lay out a specific exception because the Action you would otherwise use to cast spells carries additional costs and limitations. So, it instructs you to pay those costs and obey those limitations on your turn, and then spend the reaction resource to actually apply the spell’s effects.

This notion of "action" as both a resource and a thing done is not found in the rules, at least in what I've read. It's your interpretive construction.

As I read it, the rules use the word "action" to describe certain sorts of things that a character might do; to express the rationing/action economy principle in respect of those things; and to set out the timing/turn-by-turn rules for those things. For instance, there is this and this:

The game uses actions to govern how much you can do at one time. You can take only one action at a time.

On your turn, you can move a distance up to your Speed and take one action.​

These don't characterise actions as a resource. They state principles about when things can be done.

When it comes to readying a spell, to me the key thing is this:

*If readying a spell was handled as it is in 4e, then the character would cast the spell as their Reaction. This would be described as an "action" (the readied action), and would be a Magic action (albeit performed as a Reaction rather than in the usual fashion).

*The fact that readying a spell is made [i[more challenging as a thing to succeed at, by requiring the spell to be cast immediately (with all that entails, about spending a slot and so on) and then adding the additional stuff about holding the energy (with all that entails, including concentration), doesn't - to my mind - change the previous dot point. I still see a casting of a spell, which is a Magic action. The fact that the Casting Time rules don't identify Readying or a Reaction as alternatives to the Magic action for casting 1 Action spells reinforces my thinking on this.​

As I've said, I don't regard my interpretive argument as knock-down. But I do think it makes the whole of the rules text into a coherent enough whole, and it maintains a coherent fiction. (Again, this is something where I agree with @BenjaminPey.)

(EDITed to fix some formatting tags.)