D&D 5E (2024) Using Action Surge to cast spells in 2024

[pemerton]

According to the rules you can not take more than one action on your turn. This is strongly implied in the section labeled "one thing at a time" and explicitly stated in the section in combat labeled "your turn":

"On your turn, you can move a distance up to your Speed and take one action. You decide whether to move first or take your action first. The main actions you can take are listed in "Actions" earlier in this chapter."

As a result you can use a Reaction on your turn only if that reaction does not cause you to take more than one of the "main actions".

For example a Ranger with Interception can use a reaction to reduce the damage of an attack. "Reduce the damage" is not an action as defined, so he could do this in addition to an action on his turn. He could for example Dodge as an action and then if he gets hit with an AOO reduce the damage as a reaction.

The same Ranger can not for example Ready an action to shoot the first orc he sees (attack action) and then if he sees an orc before his turn is over use that reaction because that would be two actions in a single turn (Ready and Attack).

To me, this seems a contentious ruling. I personally don't think that the rules text supports it. Eg the Ready rules say "When the trigger occurs, you can either take your Reaction right after the trigger finishes" - if this was meant to include the additional gloss "unless you have readied an attack and it is still your turn", I think that the rules would expressly state as much, given how important it is.

Here's a practical example:

*The opponent is around a corner: the caster PC can see them, but the archer PC cannot.

*The caster, on their turn, readies a Command spell, intending to tell the opponent to "approach" once the archer PC has raised their bow so as to cover the opponent's approach as they leave cover.

*The archer, on their turn, readies an attack against the opponent for when they leave cover.

*The caster now releases their held spell energy, as a Reaction, and the opponent fails their saving throw, and so leaves the cover of the corner. It's still the archer's turn.

*The archer shoots the opponent, as a Reaction on their turn.​

This isn't the sort of sequence of actions I'd expect in someone's first ever session of D&D; but with experienced players, in the right circumstances, it's the sort of thing that can happen. To me it doesn't seem broken.

I'm curious about @Charlaquin's and @Xetheral's thoughts.

 

[Xetheral]

Which still very clearly explains that it is part of the Attack Action, unlike Ready Action which doesn't even hint that it is.

Sure it does! And it does so using very similar timing language for Improved War Magic. Consider:

When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can replace two of the attacks with a casting of one of your level 1 or level 2 Wizard spells that has a casting time of an action.

When you Ready a spell, you cast it as normal (expending any resources used to cast it) but hold its energy, which you release with your Reaction when the trigger occurs.

(Bold emphasis added.) In the case of Improved War Magic, the spell casting happens "[w]hen you take the Attack action". In the case of the Ready Action, the spell casting happens "[w]hen you Ready a spell" which necessarily occurs when you take the Ready Action. The timing constructions are parallel, and I think from context it's pretty clear that the only reason the Ready Action rules say "[w]hen you Ready a spell" rather than "[w]hen you take the Ready action" is because the Ready Action has two use cases (readying an action and readying a spell) that it needs to distinguish between.

Ergo, just as the timing rules for Improved War Magic let one cast a spell as part of an Attack Action, the similarly worded timing rules for the Ready Action let one cast a spell as part of a Ready Action. This interpretation is thus fully consistent with the wording of Improved War Magic, doesn't require reading into the text anything that isn't expressly stated, and doesn't cause the Ready Action to undermine the ostensible intent of the new restriction on Action Surge any more than Improved War Magic already does.

In my opinion, this interpretation of the text is much simpler and more straightforward than trying to read into the "as normal" language implied rules both requiring and permitting taking the Magic Action in addition to the Ready Action.

 

[pemerton]

I question whether casting a spell via Action Surge is truly "something you're not supposed to do" when the fighter subclass Eldritch Knight gives an easy way to do just that via Improved War Magic.

The point can be stated more fully:

*The additional action from Action Surge is supposed to be fighter-y stuff, not magic action-y stuff.

*The Eldritch Knight has a special feature which makes some magic action-y stuff fighter-stuff for them, by letting them substitute spell casting for attacking.​

I don't think that the wording of the Eldritch Knight war magic features sheds light on the proper interpretation of Readying the casting of a spell.

You’re never supposed to do Actions when it isn’t your turn. The entire function of Ready is to enable you to do Actions when you’re not supposed to be able to do them.

I don't think it's right to say that you're not supposed to do Actions when it isn't your turn. Rather, there is a basic principle for establishing when players can make moves - it's turn-based - but there's also a relatively complex set of rules - Readying and Reactions - that permit players to take moves outside of their turn.

And it's fairly clear why the rules are structured like this: the turn-based approach permits the imposition of a reasonably clear action economy framework; but the permission for off-turn actions is necessary to reduce the impression of a metronomic, stop-motion world. The reason the off-turn rules are complex is because of the obvious tension between the two considerations stated in my previous sentence!

 

[Xetheral]

To me, this seems a contentious ruling. I personally don't think that the rules text supports it. Eg the Ready rules say "When the trigger occurs, you can either take your Reaction right after the trigger finishes" - if this was meant to include the additional gloss "unless you have readied an attack and it is still your turn", I think that the rules would expressly state as much, given how important it is.

Here's a practical example:

*The opponent is around a corner: the caster PC can see them, but the archer PC cannot.​

​

*The caster, on their turn, readies a Command spell, intending to tell the opponent to "approach" once the archer PC has raised their bow so as to cover the opponent's approach as they leave cover.​

​

*The archer, on their turn, readies an attack against the opponent for when they leave cover.​

​

*The caster now releases their held spell energy, as a Reaction, and the opponent fails their saving throw, and so leaves the cover of the corner. It's still the archer's turn.​

​

*The archer shoots the opponent, as a Reaction on their turn.​

This isn't the sort of sequence of actions I'd expect in someone's first ever session of D&D; but with experienced players, in the right circumstances, it's the sort of thing that can happen. To me it doesn't seem broken.

I'm curious about @Charlaquin's and @Xetheral's thoughts.

Despite my overall agreement with @ECMO3 concerning Action Surge and the Ready Action, I concur with you on this sub-point. I'd allow the practical example you provided, but my understanding is that we'd disagree on whether the caster is taking (a) both the Ready Action and the Magic Action on their turn, plus a Reaction on the Archer's turn or (b) only the Ready Action on their turn plus a Reaction on the Archer's turn.

(I do see room for someone to argue that the Command spell interacts awkwardly with the Ready action given that "Approach" command is arguably part of casting the spell rather than releasing the energy, but that would be an entirely separate issue.)

The point can be stated more fully:

*The additional action from Action Surge is supposed to be fighter-y stuff, not magic action-y stuff.​

​

*The Eldritch Knight has a special feature which makes some magic action-y stuff fighter-stuff for them, by letting them substitute spell casting for attacking.​

I don't think that the wording of the Eldritch Knight war magic features sheds light on the proper interpretation of Readying the casting of a spell.

While I think there's plenty of room to feel the Improved War Magic exception to the Action Surge restriction is more or less thematically appropriate than the Ready Action exception, I think that's entirely a question of subjective personal taste. My point is that Improved War Magic shows that the new prohibition against casting via Action Surge has existing (and noncontroversial) exceptions, which I think greatly undermines any argument that when deciding between competing readings of the text of the Ready Action we should choose one that prevents casting via Action Surge. Improved War Magic demonstrates that the rule against casting via Action Surge is not sacrosanct, and the Ready Action could easily be another such exception.

 

[Charlaquin]

To me, this seems a contentious ruling. I personally don't think that the rules text supports it. Eg the Ready rules say "When the trigger occurs, you can either take your Reaction right after the trigger finishes" - if this was meant to include the additional gloss "unless you have readied an attack and it is still your turn", I think that the rules would expressly state as much, given how important it is.

Here's a practical example:

*The opponent is around a corner: the caster PC can see them, but the archer PC cannot.​

​

*The caster, on their turn, readies a Command spell, intending to tell the opponent to "approach" once the archer PC has raised their bow so as to cover the opponent's approach as they leave cover.​

​

*The archer, on their turn, readies an attack against the opponent for when they leave cover.​

​

*The caster now releases their held spell energy, as a Reaction, and the opponent fails their saving throw, and so leaves the cover of the corner. It's still the archer's turn.​

​

*The archer shoots the opponent, as a Reaction on their turn.​

This isn't the sort of sequence of actions I'd expect in someone's first ever session of D&D; but with experienced players, in the right circumstances, it's the sort of thing that can happen. To me it doesn't seem broken.

I'm curious about @Charlaquin's and @Xetheral's thoughts.

Yeah, I don’t see anything wrong with Readying an Action and then using that Readied Action as a Reaction on the same turn, assuming the trigger happened on that turn, as in your example here. Because the Readied… thing you do… is being done as a Reaction, not as an Action. This is one place where I think modeling Actions and Reactions as resources helps bring clarity (even though I no longer think it’s the most accurate model available. As I often say in my capacity as a science communicator, all models are wrong, but some models are still useful). The Ready Action isn’t just giving you the ability to use the Action at a weird time, it’s changing it into a Reaction. It no longer “costs an Action” to do, it “costs” your Reaction instead.

 

[Maxperson]

Sure it does! And it does so using very similar timing language for Improved War Magic. Consider:

You're ignoring that it directly tells you that you are taking a different action with the ready. Ready isn't an action, despite being in the action area. Ready allows you to perform a different action later, unless it's a spell in which case you cast it on your turn as normal.

Sure if you ignore that context it can seem the same as War Magic, but it's really not. You are can't using the ready action to cast the spell, since you MUST pick a DIFFERENT action to perform. In this case the Magic Action, because that's how you cast spells that take 1 action to perform.

 

[Maxperson]

Yeah, I don’t see anything wrong with Readying an Action and then using that Readied Action as a Reaction on the same turn, assuming the trigger happened on that turn, as in your example here. Because the Readied… thing you do… is being done as a Reaction, not as an Action. This is one place where I think modeling Actions and Reactions as resources helps bring clarity (even though I no longer think it’s the most accurate model available. As I often say in my capacity as a science communicator, all models are wrong, but some models are still useful). The Ready Action isn’t just giving you the ability to use the Action at a weird time, it’s changing it into a Reaction. It no longer “costs an Action” to do, it “costs” your Reaction instead.

You by RAW are not taking the Magic Action later on your turn. You are by RAW only releasing the energy of the prior cast spell.

 

[Charlaquin]

I don't think it's right to say that you're not supposed to do Actions when it isn't your turn.

I mean, it’s an oversimplification. I was echoing @BenjaminPey ’s phrasing for rhetorical effect. My point was that you do Actions on your turn; in order to do something outside your turn, you need to use a Reaction.

Rather, there is a basic principle for establishing when players can make moves - it's turn-based - but there's also a relatively complex set of rules - Readying and Reactions - that permit players to take moves outside of their turn.

And it's fairly clear why the rules are structured like this: the turn-based approach permits the imposition of a reasonably clear action economy framework; but the permission for off-turn actions is necessary to reduce the impression of a metronomic, stop-motion world. The reason the off-turn rules are complex is because of the obvious tension between the two considerations stated in my previous sentence!

I mean, I see what you’re saying and I don’t disagree. I just think, within the way the turn-based action economy is structured, there isn’t really a mechanism for Actions to be performed outside the turn of the person taking them. That’s the function of Reactions. The Ready Action, then, is functionally an Action whose effect is to create a bespoke Reaction with a trigger of your choosing and an effect that mimics something that would otherwise be an Action, and allowing you to use this special Reaction until your next turn.

 

[pemerton]

I see what you’re saying and I don’t disagree. I just think, within the way the turn-based action economy is structured, there isn’t really a mechanism for Actions to be performed outside the turn of the person taking them. That’s the function of Reactions. The Ready Action, then, is functionally an Action whose effect is to create a bespoke Reaction with a trigger of your choosing and an effect that mimics something that would otherwise be an Action, and allowing you to use this special Reaction until your next turn.

I guess the counterpoint to this is that the rules describe Reactions as a special sort of action. So Reactions are an instance of actions (a special instance), not a contrast to them.

Now, if in saying that an Action is not a Reaction you're simply restating the action economy of a turn - ie on your turn you can move and take an action - well, OK, but that is not the only context in which the word "action" is used.

 

[Charlaquin]

I guess the counterpoint to this is that the rules describe Reactions as a special sort of action. So Reactions are an instance of actions (a special instance), not a contrast to them.

Now, if in saying that an Action is not a Reaction you're simply restating the action economy of a turn - ie on your turn you can move and take an action - well, OK, but that is not the only context in which the word "action" is used.

Quoting the 2024 text describing Reactions for reference:

Certain special abilities, spells, and situations allow you to take a special action called a Reaction. A Reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind, which can occur on your turn or on someone else’s. The Opportunity Attack, described later in this chapter, is the most common type of Reaction.

When you take a Reaction, you can’t take another one until the start of your next turn. If the reaction interrupts another creature’s turn, that creature can continue its turn right after the Reaction.

In terms of timing, a Reaction takes place immediately after its trigger unless the Reaction’s description says otherwise.

Note that the word “action” in the phrase “special action called a Reaction” is not capitalized. In anll instances of referring to Actions, as in the game rules object, are capitalized in the 2024 PHB, but here it is not. This tells me that, in this instance, the word is being used in its natural English definition, not as a reference to the game rules object. This sentence, therefore, is just saying that Reactions are a special category of activity you perform, not that they’re a subcategory the game rules objects known as Actions.