D&D 5E Using all 6 abilities for saves

[RangerWickett]

D&D 3e gave us Fort/Ref/Will, which were basically Con/Dex/Wis saves. They handled things that affected your physical form that you couldn't dodge, things that you could dodge, and things that affected your mind or soul.

5e has saves for all six stats, but Str, Int, and Cha saves are pretty rare. I'd like help coming up with a nice array of types of things that would call for each save, so that I can use a variety in my games, and make all saves pertinent. Here's what I've got so far. Things with asterisks are probably going to seem weird until I explain them.

STRENGTH
(Conan is good at resisting this)
Things that grab or swallow you (including grapple checks, webs, tanglefoot bags).
Things that push, drag, or trip you (including thunderwave, ropers, and wolves).

DEXTERITY
(Spider-Man is good at resisting this)
Explosions and other area attacks.
Pit traps and other hazards that require getting out of the area.
*Gaze attacks (specifically to look away from them).

CONSTITUTION
(Wolverine is good at resisting this)
Poison (but I'm changing it - I want it to work sorta like a specter's attack; it always does damage, but if you fail your save it also lowers your hit point maximum by the same amount)*.
Suffocation (like being choked or crushed or drowned).
Stunning effects.

INTELLIGENCE
(Iron Man is good at resisting this - without needing his suit)
Illusions.

WISDOM
(Paul Atreides from Dune is good at resisting this)
Combat maneuvers like feints, disarms, and dirty tricks.
Emotion effects like charm and fear.

CHARISMA
(Steve Rogers is good at resisting this - without the super soldier serum)
Domination (total mind control)
Compulsion (stuff that orders a specific action)
Stuff that changes what you are (polymorph, petrification)

So for instance, if a medusa looks at you, you'd get a Dex save to look away. If you succeed, you're blinded for a round. If you fail, you make a Charisma save to resist being petrified. If you succeed, you are slowed as you partially turn to stone, and then you fully turn to stone at the start of your next turn. If you fail, you turn to stone immediately.

----

If I'm doing these things, I think I might design monsters to have more vulnerabilities, and let Intelligence be used to figure those out. Because I can't think of many Int-based saves.

Also, I might want to add a new damage type: curse. It's for things that don't have a physical wound component, and don't really affect your mind either, but still somehow make you more likely to die. Curse and poison damage would both have a chance to lower your HP max. I might even make Medusas do a LOT of curse damage; you can make a Dexterity save for half to look away. If you fail the Dex save, you make a Cha save to avoid being slowed for a round. But you're only petrified if the curse reduces your HP total to 0.

Hm, should 'bleed' effects exist and use the same mechanic? Or maybe bleed and curse lower max HP, and poison is just damage that tends to cause a negative status condition.

Sorry, it's 3am and I'm rambling. What do you think?

 

[humble minion]

The obvious logical use for Charisma saves is to resist the use of social skills like Persuasion etc on oneself. But having NPCs use the PC Persuasion rules is a can of worms I think i'd prefer left unopened...

Intelligence saves could be used as the 'common sense' check, or as a memory jogger. If your PC does something in session 10 but you OOC have forgotten about something relevant that happened in session 5, the GM can call for an Int save to check if your PC remembers it.

 

[Don Durito]

One way to use a Charisma save would be to give a character a chance to repair a potentially bad social situation.

So for example the bard tries to bribe the guard and fails. The guards might normally become quite hostile at the attempted bribe, but the Bard makes a charisma save to try and convince them that the whole thing was just a big misunderstanding (he doesn't get a second chance to bribe them).

You might also use it if someone says something clueless, like the player who insists on talking down to the king "the king looks as if he can't believe what you just said and you can see he's about to lose his temper; one person can make a Charisma save to see if they can smooth over the situation."

 

[Coroc]

D&D 3e gave us Fort/Ref/Will, which were basically Con/Dex/Wis saves. They handled things that affected your physical form that you couldn't dodge, things that you could dodge, and things that affected your mind or soul.

5e has saves for all six stats, but Str, Int, and Cha saves are pretty rare. I'd like help coming up with a nice array of types of things that would call for each save, so that I can use a variety in my games, and make all saves pertinent. Here's what I've got so far. Things with asterisks are probably going to seem weird until I explain them.

STRENGTH
(Conan is good at resisting this)
Things that grab or swallow you (including grapple checks, webs, tanglefoot bags).
Things that push, drag, or trip you (including thunderwave, ropers, and wolves).

DEXTERITY
(Spider-Man is good at resisting this)
Explosions and other area attacks.
Pit traps and other hazards that require getting out of the area.
*Gaze attacks (specifically to look away from them).

CONSTITUTION
(Wolverine is good at resisting this)
Poison (but I'm changing it - I want it to work sorta like a specter's attack; it always does damage, but if you fail your save it also lowers your hit point maximum by the same amount)*.
Suffocation (like being choked or crushed or drowned).
Stunning effects.

INTELLIGENCE
(Iron Man is good at resisting this - without needing his suit)
Illusions.

WISDOM
(Paul Atreides from Dune is good at resisting this)
Combat maneuvers like feints, disarms, and dirty tricks.
Emotion effects like charm and fear.

CHARISMA
(Steve Rogers is good at resisting this - without the super soldier serum)
Domination (total mind control)
Compulsion (stuff that orders a specific action)
Stuff that changes what you are (polymorph, petrification)

So for instance, if a medusa looks at you, you'd get a Dex save to look away. If you succeed, you're blinded for a round. If you fail, you make a Charisma save to resist being petrified. If you succeed, you are slowed as you partially turn to stone, and then you fully turn to stone at the start of your next turn. If you fail, you turn to stone immediately.

----

If I'm doing these things, I think I might design monsters to have more vulnerabilities, and let Intelligence be used to figure those out. Because I can't think of many Int-based saves.

Also, I might want to add a new damage type: curse. It's for things that don't have a physical wound component, and don't really affect your mind either, but still somehow make you more likely to die. Curse and poison damage would both have a chance to lower your HP max. I might even make Medusas do a LOT of curse damage; you can make a Dexterity save for half to look away. If you fail the Dex save, you make a Cha save to avoid being slowed for a round. But you're only petrified if the curse reduces your HP total to 0.

Hm, should 'bleed' effects exist and use the same mechanic? Or maybe bleed and curse lower max HP, and poison is just damage that tends to cause a negative status condition.

Sorry, it's 3am and I'm rambling. What do you think?

medusa: make an int save to realize you must not look into her eyes, make a wis (will) save to avoid eye contact, make a cha save to communicate these insights to your fellow pcs successfully, make a dex save to quickly look away, make a con save to avoid petrification if you still looked and make a str save to break out of the beginning petrification.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

I basically like to approach it like this.

Firstly, what is the difference between an ability check, and a saving throw?

The way I interpret it, a check is when you are actively attempting something, whereas a save is where you have something happen to you (ie, the choice is not an active one)

That being said, I basically like to say, "If this was something the character was attempting to do, what sort of check would it be" and use that to inform the decision.

Case in point. The other session a (heavy) character attempted to climb on top of the shoulders of another character, so I called for a Strength save on the part of the one whose shoulders it was.

 

[Horwath]

I would rather have return to 3 saves, Fort, Ref, Will
but with all 6 abilities used.

Fort: str + con modifier, current all str and con saves
Ref: dex + int modifier, current all dex saves
Will: wis + cha, current all int, wis and cha saves

raise base DC of saves from 8 to 9.

have all classes proficient in one save depending on what "strong" save they have now:

con save -> fort save
dex save -> ref save
wis save -> will save

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

I imagine Cha save as keeping the composure in social situations, for example when you are publicly insulted but you can keep your honor, your dignity against attempted humiliations, or when you are accused or suffering a scolding and with your look you make clear the other is not above you.

Summarizing, the Cha saves is for hostile social interactions (and some mind-affecting powers) what try you feel guilty, ashamed, hung-up, demoralized or humiliated, or cha save to avoid the other can notice with "sense motive" you are lying.

 

[ByOdinsBeardRPG]

I've created some monsters and magic items that use Charisma saves; one of them is a magic mirror that pulls you inside if you fail the save. Essentially you're using the power of your own self-image to counter the magic.

I've also had some effects that use an Intelligence save to defend against psychic/nightmare attacks; essentially, the creature imposes nightmare reality on you and you need to see through to the true reality underneath. If you fail the save, your mind inflicts the psychic damage it perceives as real.

 

[Dragonsbane]

Here are the spell changes we use to spread out the saves, I found this on some thread long ago and changes it a bit, but it works really well. It's a good start at least.

Also, I give ALL monsters two good saves. Just syain.

Altered Saving Throws​

Some spells have altered saving throws to adhere more to how ability scores are described in the PHB and DMG.

Strength​

To resist any effect that forcefully moves, restrains, or paralyzes you.
Imprisonment
Levitate
Thunderwave
Web

Charisma​

To resist Enchantments and Compulsions
Antipathy/Sympathy
Command
Compelled Duel
Compulsion
Confusion
Dissonant Whispers
Dominate Beast
Dominate Monster
Dominate Person
Feeblemind
Geas
Hold Person
Hold Monster
Mass Suggestion
Modify Memory
Otto's Irresistible Dance
Suggestion
Tasha's Hideous Laughter

Intelligence Saves​

To resist all illusions, psychic damage, and psionics.
Dream
Fear
Phantasmal Killer
Weird

 

[Baldurs_Underdark]

My PCs use Cha to ruin the lives of NPCs, and Wis to save their own a**.

Cha is above-average in value in role-play and interactions with NPCs, so it can be below-average in saving throws.

IMHO, Same goes for the other stats. Overall the game is pretty well-balanced.