Using an assassins death-attack fairly

[Li Shenron]

Staying within the rules I'm afraid there's no way to avoid save-or-die situations being what they are. Spot, Listen, action points only decrease the chance of dying, or make it a save-or-save-or-save-or-die but the point is always that the players can do NOTHING except roll, meaning that there is no actual tactical decision on the player's part.

House rules like that of dropping the PC somewhere close to death are always very good, because they give the party an option to play smart to solve the threat, which is always more rewarding than a lucky roll.
Think of it as in a movie: the bad guy sets the time bomb, and the good guys have to be fast and smart to turn it off before it explodes. That's a typical movie trick to keep the audience tense and excited.

Anyway, I never used death attacks against the party, instead I just use assassins with normal attacks (maybe sneak). I can only use save-or-die attacks against 3rd persons that the party may want to protect, but not actual party members.

 

[wuyanei]

Now thats a house rule that I like. If you also include a bleeding equivalent effect (fading ?) then save or die attacks can still be almost as fatal, but it does add a chance for companions to come to the rescue.

Of course there is such an effect!

Dying (-1 to -9 Hit Points)
When your character’s current hit points drop to between -1 and -9 inclusive, he’s dying.
A dying character immediately falls unconscious and can take no actions.
A dying character loses 1 hit point every round. This continues until the character dies or becomes stable (see below).

Did you think I meant to let the PCs automatically stablize after the attack? Why!? That would ruined all the fun!

 

[Xor]

Of course there is such an effect!

Did you think I meant to let the PCs automatically stablize after the attack? Why!? That would ruined all the fun!

Heh, of course

I was just thinking about expanding the scope of the rule to cover effects like 'finger of death' spell. Currently that causes no physical wounds, but does kill. So with no physical wounds, or bleeding, etc, it might be logical to think that the character would be 'stable' on -1d10 hp.

That does make it too safe though and as you say it ruins half the fun

Can anyone recall someone doing a poll in the past on the usage of save-or-die effects? (How often people use them, do they use them RAW or how ruled, do they refuse to use them etc).

I'm tempted to start a poll if its not been done before. Still not a single account of someone using the assassins death-attack and few people speaking up on experience of save-or-die effects either.

 

[wuyanei]

I was just thinking about expanding the scope of the rule to cover effects like 'finger of death' spell. Currently that causes no physical wounds, but does kill. So with no physical wounds, or bleeding, etc, it might be logical to think that the character would be 'stable' on -1d10 hp.

Not necessarily: "A horrible, ink-black bolt of unholy energy lanced out and struck _____ in the middle of his chest. He shudders and collapses, the foul power overwhelming him as his very life force is attacked by the evil sorcerer's spell. You watch in shocked horror as his skin greys and shrivels -- begins to flake off of his face before your very eyes -- and you know without a doubt that if you do not do SOMETHING to help him, and quickly, within seconds you will have one less friend to continue your adventures with."

It all depends on the descriptive text.

As for death attacks, I actually tend to use them rather liberally... but I also use the -1d10 hp house rule, so actual deaths are not common.

 

[Xor]

Can anyone recall someone doing a poll in the past on the usage of save-or-die effects? (How often people use them, do they use them RAW or how ruled, do they refuse to use them etc).

I'm tempted to start a poll if its not been done before. Still not a single account of someone using the assassins death-attack and few people speaking up on experience of save-or-die effects either.

Too much caffine today, couldnt wait for someone to reply, so started a poll already. Its here (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=152932) for those that want to vote.

 

[Chaldfont]

A main plot point in my campaign was the use of magically-created doppelganger assassins by The Bad Guy to infiltrate and control the region's governments. The PCs knew the DA's existed and the main thrust of the campaign was to break the magical grip The Bad Guy had on the DA's. Once they became known to their enemy by foiling his plans, I warned them. This guy has a dozen centuries-old doppelganger assassins! They topple governments for fun!

But my players failed to prepare. They just went about their business as usual. Time for an assassination attempt!

One of the PCs is a druid who runs a winery. I had the DA hire on with a group of new employees. It waited until it was just he and the druid working late and BAM! The druid died and the DA shoved his body into a wine barrel and stacked it up with all the rest. He then went on to try to kill the rest of the party in their home but failed and narrowly escaped.

The next session was a race-against-time where the surviving PCs had to find the druid's body in time to use raise dead on it. They also spent weeks of real time fortifying their home and preparing defenses.

 

[KRT]

Use action points as per unearthed arcana. Players can add or subtract a d6 to a d20 roll if they just miss a roll or someone criticals them. At 8th level they can use 2d6 take the best d6. It gives them a fighting chance against save or die type effects and keeps the consequences. Especially since players tend to play a bit harder (i.e fighting when within death range) hoping that the action points can stave off any criticals that might occur.

 

[Reynard]

I agree with the assessment that the only requisite level of fairness is some indication that an assassin (or any save-or-die situation) is going to come up. If the PCs don't take such a warning seriously enough to get good and paranoid, they deserve it.

WoE -- don't look here.

Spoiler

In my new Eberron campaign, which stars a 13th level evil party from a different Prime, they are very quickly, due to their pure power level, going to come to the attention of various power groups in Khorvaire. At least one of them is going to hire an assassin, I can garauntee it.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

From levels 3-8 or so my character, a paladin, was the constant target of Death Attacks by a halfling assassin named Peck. God, I hated Peck. After the first time, we always knew what his tactic would be. Show up (invisible) with lackeys, then hit me with a Death Attack. If things start to go back, run away and try again later.

I think I was hit with 3-4 Death Attacks all told, before we finally tracked the bastard down after he tried to run away one final time, and the fighter/barbarian killed him at last.

Was I nervous? Heck, yeah. As a paladin, I had the best chance of making the save vs. Death, but even so it was hardly a guaranteed thing. And the fact that he targetted my character almost exclusively made things nerve wracking.

But I didn't think it was unfair. There's rez magic in our game (several characters have died over the levels. We're 12th now.) And everything made sense. Both the use of the Death Attack as an opening gambit, and the reason he kept using it on me. Bad guys are going to try and kill the good guys. It's what they do. It's no different than an orc barbarian critting the party wizard.

Just make sure everything is legit, and you should be fine.

I would, however, avoid using logic like "I shouldn't use my Death Attack on the barbarian because he's got a better fort save." Metagame logic isn't "fair" IMO. Use the assassin's in-game logic to determine whom he attacks. If he has a history with orcs, he might just make that barbarian his prime target. If he's had a lot of run-ins with wizards and fears magic, he might target the wizard first. Whatever. Just don't choose his target because it's the most rules-deadly thing to do.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Has anyone actually used the assassins death-attack as a DM or had it used against them as a player? How did it go?

*cough*

I just went through a gauntlet a few weeks ago about my descision to target my PC's with an assassin. Of course, this assassin was also a Cleric, giving him access to divination (finding them is easy) and spells like Silence and Pass Without Trace and Invisibilty and True Strike.

It does seem a bit more unfair when they don't get Spot checks because he's invisible...or Listen checks because he's slient...or Survival checks to track him because he leaves no trail....and their AC is useless because of his +20 to hit on that first attack....

But I made sure that for this occasion, that resurrection was not hard to come accross. I also made sure to use his limitations -- only one death attack per night, not always at the PC's, with a quick retreat afterwards. His fear starts out sudden, but builds to be a creeping suspense. The PC's don't die, but every Resurrection-capable individual around them dies...and they know it's just a matter of time before it comes down to them.

Anyway, my group was pretty cool with the experience. They liked the challenge. But it is important to not just kill them off without recourse permenantly. The "reduced to -1 and bleeding" rule is a nice way to mitigate it, but it does rob some of the power from the Assassin.