Using base Reflex save as Class defence AC bonus

[SJE]

I'm running a Midnight game and have been wrestling with the problem of the PC's having low AC's since magical armour will not be available in the game.

One thing I've done to balance this at low levels is allow Mastercrafted armour to add and extra +1 to the normal AC bonus. (so a Mastercrafted sword to hit is balanced by the Mastercrafted amour bonus)

But at high levels this will become far more unbalanced as the PC's have plus 15 to hit, but still only +7 to +10 for mastercrafted armour.

So seeing the B5 solution, I thought about allowing Class based characters to add their Base Reflex save to their AC. For the fighting classes (Figher, Wildlander, Barbarian) they would get a +3 to their AC at 10th level which sounds about right.

The problem is those with fast Reflex save advancement (Rogues & Defenders in Midnight) who would get a whopping +2 at 1st level and +6 at 10th.

For them, I think they could get a defense bonus of "Base reflex save MINUS 2". That way they dont get the equivalent of +2 magic armour at 1st level and horrendous AC's at higher levels. At 10th level they would get +4, which is better than fighter types, but apropriate for their fragile HP basis.

My problem comes here- should the minus 2 to Base Reflex for Fast reflex advancement be applied to each Good Reflex class (if the PC multiclasses between Rogue & Defender) and what should happen with prestige classes?

Any comments or analysis.

Thanks,

Steve

 

[DanMcS]

To solve the one problem, smooth out multiclassing save by saying you sum all your levels in a good save plus all your levels with a bad save to get your base save bonus. So a Rogue 2/Monk 2(or whatever) wouldn't have a +6 reflex save, he'd have a +4. That's keeps you from having to worry about someone getting multiple +2s to reflex from multiclassing.

I don't like reflex save for this, it gives a big combat boost to non-warriors, and little to the guys who are going to be on the front line learning how to bob, weave, and parry.

Expertise is really the answer, it represents skill in combat being used to defend yourself. If everyone has to use this all the time, ACs will be higher and BABs effectively lower across the board, pretty much solving your problem.

 

[LokiDR]

This is clearly addressed in the Wheel of Time RPG. Classes get "defense bonuses" as they level. Warriors get more then non-warriors. The bonus does not stack with armor worn unless you have the ability to make that work, such as the armsmen gets.

This means higher level charactesr are harder to hit just because they are higher level. I matches the low-magic heroic story pretty well.

 

[MadScientist]

I think using base reflex save could really unbalance the ranger compared to the other fighers. I would just use a class based defence bonus to AC, possibly equal to 1/2 their BaB. I know the Grim + Gritty variant rules had some class based defence bonuses to AC but I don't remember what they are. I would suggest checking those out as well.

Edit: Here is a link to those rules Grim & Grutty rules .pdf It looks like they have three types of defence bonuses, good, average and poor, with good being equal to a good save, poor equal to a poor save, and average intermittent between the two. So at 10th level a good defence bonus is +7, average is +5, and poor is +3.

If you do institute a level based defence bonus I would recomend letting them stack with armor bonuses though. Otherwise high level characters will never wear armor and the bonus will not benefit low level characters.

 

[SJE]

Just to clarify-

The defence bonus used would stack with armour, since it effectively replaces the magical plus of magic armour.

The WoT system has the slight problem of mapping from the WoT classes over to the Midnight classes. We are also still on 3.0 for the time being.

I quite like the idea of averaging the total saves of a PC, but on the other hand, Reflex alone is supposed to reflect the 'avoiding harm' element of the game- it seems more natural to extend that to AC than Will, which simply has no impact on how hard you are to hit.

Expertise is tempting to give away free, but my game philosophy is to keep things as simple as possible and Expertise requires a constant juggling of AC and BAB's that would only slow my game down. (I know my players- 2 refuse to even own the PHB and need to ask what they add to the die roll)

Thank you for you comments so far- much appreciated!

Steve

 

[LokiDR]

Just to clarify-

The defence bonus used would stack with armour, since it effectively replaces the magical plus of magic armour.

The WoT system has the slight problem of mapping from the WoT classes over to the Midnight classes. We are also still on 3.0 for the time being.

One way or another, you are talking about a significant modification to the game system. The WoT system didn't let charcters use armor and deffense bonus at the same time to fit the feal of the book: very few characters were armored much. If you want to follow a different style (armor is good) then stacking those same bonuses should work pretty well.

I quite like the idea of averaging the total saves of a PC, but on the other hand, Reflex alone is supposed to reflect the 'avoiding harm' element of the game- it seems more natural to extend that to AC than Will, which simply has no impact on how hard you are to hit.

Expertise is tempting to give away free, but my game philosophy is to keep things as simple as possible and Expertise requires a constant juggling of AC and BAB's that would only slow my game down. (I know my players- 2 refuse to even own the PHB and need to ask what they add to the die roll)

Thank you for you comments so far- much appreciated!

Steve

Well, you want the warrior types to be more protected, right? The simple solution would be 1/3 or 1/2 of BAB so it becomes "base attack and defense bonus". The casters have spells, if you have casters.

An alternative you could take would be "advanced metalurgy" where it is possible for non-casters to create armor or weapons with a static enhancement bonus because their item is "just that good". Check out the master smith in Magic of Rokugan for an example.