D&D 5E Using Class Focus instead of Ability Scores (+)

[DND_Reborn]

So as to not derail the thread started by @Cadence, I would like to explore the idea of a class "focus", which would replace the combined ability modifier + proficiency bonus, as well as serve some other functions. This approach is somewhat similar to a "priority" system.

The categories are:

COMBAT: modifies proficient attack rolls, secondary* is non-proficient attack rolls, as well as damage
DEFENSE: modifies proficient saving throws, secondary* is non-proficient saves and AC
MAGIC: modifies spell save DCs, secondary* is attack rolls (and damage?)
SKILLS: modifies proficient checks, secondary* non-proficient checks

Each category would receive a rating of Better, Good, Average, or Poor, exclusively. I considered allowing ratings such as two Averages and two Goods, or two Betters, and two Poors, but I prefer the idea of forcing a distinct rating for each as those options would allow too many "middle grounds" and "min/maxed" PCs IMO.

Secondary bonuses are two ratings lower (see below), to a minimum of poor. So, if you have Better Combat, your Attack bonus is Best, but your Damage bonus is Average. This might change to just one rating lower, but I think two is erring on the better side of caution.

Note: for AC, your focus bonus would replace your armor if it is better than the AC bonus you get (equal to the armor's AC value - 10) from wearing the armor. In our game, armor provide damage reduction regardless so is always useful.

Option: for the first three categories, it makes sense to allow the player to choose a primary and secondary focus use. So, instead of COMBAT being attack rolls with damage secondary, you could reverse it to deal more damage, but have attack rolls secondary. MAGIC as spell attacks (and maybe damage) as the larger bonus, with the secondary being for Spell Save DCs works, too. With this option, non-proficient saves and checks would always be secondary.

The bonus progression would be:

The Best progression is reserved for special situations, such as a PC with Better Skills adding Expertise to a couple of them, and for exceptional creatures.

Below are the unique groupings and a first draft of the classes I associate with them. Obviously many people might place classes in a different place, so if you have an argument for a switch let me know.

Finally, this is a (+) thread. I know many people like the simple, universal proficiency bonus, and I can respect that if you do. This is an idea I would like to explore with others who might also want to support such a system. I know it is a bit of a throw-back to prior editions, and if I went forward I would have a lot of work to do implementing it with creatures, etc. if I didn't want to just assume they were universally "average" at everything.

That's it for now. Thanks for reading and any contributions to the discussion.

 

[Blue]

I like this for a fantasy heartbreaker.

Have you considered instead of each class having a set progression which may not fit all all concepts, instead do it like early (and maybe current) Shadowrun where each character arranged the categories with priority A-D. And then have your class show how that works out. So one Fighter might have A: Defense, B: Combat, C: Skills, and D: Magic/Features. They are quite tanky. Another puts Combat first, then Skills, Defense, then Magic/Features. Another wants all sorts of tricks to do with arrows and does Combat, Magic/Features, Skills, Defense. Someone else wants to play a gish-type and does Magic, then Combat, Defense, and Skills. Mind you, they are all picking Fighter as a class, so Magic first for a fighter will be very different than Magic first for a Wizard - though should be just as viable.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Have you considered instead of each class having a set progression which may not fit all all concepts, instead do it like early (and maybe current) Shadowrun where each character arranged the categories with priority A-D.

Yeah, that's why I said it is like a priority system. I've always liked how Shadowrun does priorities, so I borrowed heavily from that.

I thought about just allowing people to assign them as they wanted (provided each is used only once) so they could develop what strengths and weaknesses they wanted, without being tied to a class directly.

My concern was people min/maxing off of it too much, which is why I decided against it at first. It is a balance between allowing for viable concepts without supporting min/maxing, which I try to discourage.

If that isn't an issue for someone, they could certain do as you suggest, and then pick the class solely for features, etc.

 

[NotAYakk]

This throws away bounded accuracy.

In baseline, ATK for a competent L1 character is +5, and it caps at +11, a 6 point swing.

Your Best goes from +3 to +12.

Saves DC similarly scale from DC 13 to DC 19, a 6 point swing. Yours is a 9 point swing.

I would combine Combat and Defence honestly.

Magic, by itself, is pretty damn dominant. Having a brawler be half as competent as a wizard (because more categories needed) sucks.

Making Skills as impkrtant as Magic is challenging. Honestly you'd need some Exhalted-like mechanics.

Splitting Magic up is another option. Like, "Magic Knowledge, Magic Slots, Magic Pkwer" might let it balance the other categories?

 

[DND_Reborn]

This throws away bounded accuracy.

Well, it doesn't really "throw it away" so much as expand it a bit. Personally, I always felt bounded accuracy was a bit too bounded. IIRC, it was supposed to cap (more or less) around 30ish, and I think 40ish would be better. I certainly don't want crazy numbers like prior editions, but a bit bigger would be nice IMO.

In baseline, ATK for a competent L1 character is +5, and it caps at +11, a 6 point swing.

Your Best goes from +3 to +12.

Correct, but notice RAW is +11, mine is +12. Do you really think a 1-point difference is going to break anything?

Saves DC similarly scale from DC 13 to DC 19, a 6 point swing. Yours is a 9 point swing.

Correct, emphasizing the greater disparity between level 1 and level 19+. IMO a 4-point difference in proficiency RAW between +2 and +6 is a bit pathetic. Add to that the fact a level 1 PC can have a +7 with a 20 stat makes it even worse!

This is meant to create a greater rift between tier 1 and tier 4, as well as remove ability scores (which can off balance it IME at low levels especially with min/maxers).

I would combine Combat and Defence honestly.

Yeah, it was at first. It was Attack rolls and AC, while Saves relied on the class proficiency to be better, all non-proficient were poor. If you think that is a better method, I might go back to it. What do you think??

Magic, by itself, is pretty damn dominant. Having a brawler be half as competent as a wizard (because more categories needed) sucks.

Making Skills as impkrtant as Magic is challenging. Honestly you'd need some Exhalted-like mechanics.

Splitting Magic up is another option. Like, "Magic Knowledge, Magic Slots, Magic Pkwer" might let it balance the other categories?

That is a good point. I could separate out Spell Attacks from Spell Save DCs, and possibly add more categories. One possibility would be Spell Progression (probably what you meant by Magic Slots?) where it would be full, half, third, and none?

Thanks for your input!

 

[ECMO3]

So as to not derail the thread started by @Cadence, I would like to explore the idea of a class "focus", which would replace the combined ability modifier + proficiency bonus, as well as serve some other functions. This approach is somewhat similar to a "priority" system.

The categories are:

COMBAT: modifies proficient attack rolls, secondary* is non-proficient attack rolls, as well as damage
DEFENSE: modifies proficient saving throws, secondary* is non-proficient saves and AC
MAGIC: modifies spell save DCs, secondary* is attack rolls (and damage?)
SKILLS: modifies proficient checks, secondary* non-proficient checks

Each category would receive a rating of Better, Good, Average, or Poor, exclusively. I considered allowing ratings such as two Averages and two Goods, or two Betters, and two Poors, but I prefer the idea of forcing a distinct rating for each as those options would allow too many "middle grounds" and "min/maxed" PCs IMO.

Secondary bonuses are two ratings lower (see below), to a minimum of poor. So, if you have Better Combat, your Attack bonus is Best, but your Damage bonus is Average. This might change to just one rating lower, but I think two is erring on the better side of caution.

Note: for AC, your focus bonus would replace your armor if it is better than the AC bonus you get (equal to the armor's AC value - 10) from wearing the armor. In our game, armor provide damage reduction regardless so is always useful.

Option: for the first three categories, it makes sense to allow the player to choose a primary and secondary focus use. So, instead of COMBAT being attack rolls with damage secondary, you could reverse it to deal more damage, but have attack rolls secondary. MAGIC as spell attacks (and maybe damage) as the larger bonus, with the secondary being for Spell Save DCs works, too. With this option, non-proficient saves and checks would always be secondary.

The bonus progression would be:
View attachment 151124

The Best progression is reserved for special situations, such as a PC with Better Skills adding Expertise to a couple of them, and for exceptional creatures.

Below are the unique groupings and a first draft of the classes I associate with them. Obviously many people might place classes in a different place, so if you have an argument for a switch let me know.

View attachment 151125

Finally, this is a (+) thread. I know many people like the simple, universal proficiency bonus, and I can respect that if you do. This is an idea I would like to explore with others who might also want to support such a system. I know it is a bit of a throw-back to prior editions, and if I went forward I would have a lot of work to do implementing it with creatures, etc. if I didn't want to just assume they were universally "average" at everything.

That's it for now. Thanks for reading and any contributions to the discussion.

I think 3.5E is a better starting point for this than 5E is.

 

[NotAYakk]

DC and ATK are alternatives not complements; you get to pick.

ATK and DEF are complements; you don't get to pick.

(# and Level of Spell Slots), (DC/ATK), and (Known Spells) 3 different features of magic that are complements. Known Spells experiences diminishing marginal returns.

Really, (Combat=ATK+DEF), (Skills and Class Features as one), then each of the 3 categories of Magic are almost "balanced" against each other.

Like, would you rather have 9th level casting with 3 spells known and DC 13/+5 ATK, or every single (non-Combat) Ranger class feature?

 

[DND_Reborn]

Hmm... so with the non-magic categories, how many do you have altogether then? It looks like you're suggesting 5?

If I am understanding you correctly, it would seem like you would have to focus on three magic, but combat would only be one and skills/class features one.

I see the direction you're going (I hope) but it seems like you might be putting too much emphasis on magic by having three categories for it...

 

[Horwath]

kinda like the idea.

maybe reduce the number of categories to 3. Good, Average, Bad or unskilled, trained, master.

also, I would not increase AC too much, you have increase in HP over levels for that.

 

[DND_Reborn]

kinda like the idea.

maybe reduce the number of categories to 3. Good, Average, Bad or unskilled, trained, master.

also, I would not increase AC too much, you have increase in HP over levels for that.

I started with three and had just three categories at first: Combat, Magic, and Skills, but expanded it for a group to include Saves. Also, with things like Expertise, adding a "Best" group seemed to make sense. My first thought with fewer progressions was Expertise would allow you to add the average rating to whatever you already had, so maybe I could go back to that...

I get your point about the AC, but we removed HP bloat, so having better ACs is intentional. We hit less often, making combat more exciting because when you hit it counts for more.

Thanks for your input!