Using goals to guide perception vs investigation ability checks

[Tony Vargas]

Ah, not familiar with 3e but good to know.

From the 3.0 SRD:

Spot (WIS)
The Spot skill is used primarily to detect characters or creatures who are hiding. Typically, Spot is opposed by the Hide check of the creature trying not to be seen. Sometimes a creature isn't intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it.

(Yeah, it was sense-specific, listen was a separate WIS skill.)


Search (INT)
The character generally must be within 10 feet of the object or surface to be searched. It takes 1 round to search a 5-foot-by-5-foot area or a volume of goods 5 feet on a side; doing so is a full-round action.
Search Checks (from a table it was too much trouble to try to cut/paste) : Ransack a chest full of junk to find a certain item, Notice a typical secret door or a simple trap, etc..

(Search was also used to find tracks (Tracking was a feat, though), and it's use to find traps was gated by a Rogue special ability...
...because niche protection was still kinda a thing.)

But, yeah. WIS based skill to see hiding/hard-to-see creatures, INT based to search for things.

 

[Jackdaw]

The guideline I use in my own games is informed by the fact that 5e animals usually have a decent Wisdom but a low Intelligence. They're good at Perception rolls but bad at Investigation rolls. It's been an amazingly helpful distinction.

Perception: The information is something that an animal could react to in an a useful way. Movement, noises, demonstrative physical danger, very simple traps, basic secret entrances (crawlspaces, cracks in a cave), etc.

Investigation: The information is something that probably only an intelligent/sapient creature could react to in a useful way. Hidden notes, complex mechanical traps, sorting for a specific item, noticing something is "out of place", noticing dangerous items/chemicals.

 

[jgsugden]

I break down the interaction with the world into three different areas:

• Detection - Do you note the existence of it as something notable?
• Understanding - Do you understand what it is?
• Manipulation - Can you make ti do what you want?

Detection is often achieved via a perception role, but other skills can be used to detect in some circumstances. For example, realizing there is hidden text within a portrait or spotting a fake floor panel might be a perception role. However, noting that there is a secret word cypher in a text of passage would be an investigation check or noting that a famous story has had facts altered in a certain telling would be a history check.

Understanding is usually achieved through a wisdom or intelligence skill associated with something you've perceived.

Manipulation can be achieved through almost any skill (or tool) check. Whatever is appropriate for the manipulation. Thieves tools to open a lock, athletics to climb into a secret hole, sleight of hand to grab the rare book, intimidation to scare the timid guard, etc....

Whenever a PC is going to attempt anything, I consider what they need to detect, understand and manipulate. Often, they don't need to role checks for all three of these things to 'beat' the situation - but there can be benefits for rolling them, such as additional pieces of data for a good perception check, more ideas on how to manipulate the situation with an understanding check, or newly revealed information from manipulating the situation.

I've been using different variants on this idea since the 80s and the first introduction of a skill system into D&D. It works well.

 

[Quickleaf]

The guideline I use in my own games is informed by the fact that 5e animals usually have a decent Wisdom but a low Intelligence. They're good at Perception rolls but bad at Investigation rolls. It's been an amazingly helpful distinction.

Perception: The information is something that an animal could react to in an a useful way. Movement, noises, demonstrative physical danger, very simple traps, basic secret entrances (crawlspaces, cracks in a cave), etc.

Investigation: The information is something that probably only an intelligent/sapient creature could react to in a useful way. Hidden notes, complex mechanical traps, sorting for a specific item, noticing something is "out of place", noticing dangerous items/chemicals.

Outstanding. That is the best and clearest distinction between Perception & Investigation that I’ve read. Will share with my group. Thanks!

 

[Harzel]

The guideline I use in my own games is informed by the fact that 5e animals usually have a decent Wisdom but a low Intelligence. They're good at Perception rolls but bad at Investigation rolls. It's been an amazingly helpful distinction.

Perception: The information is something that an animal could react to in an a useful way. Movement, noises, demonstrative physical danger, very simple traps, basic secret entrances (crawlspaces, cracks in a cave), etc.

Investigation: The information is something that probably only an intelligent/sapient creature could react to in a useful way. Hidden notes, complex mechanical traps, sorting for a specific item, noticing something is "out of place", noticing dangerous items/chemicals.

That's an interesting take, and your examples are compelling, but I'm not sure I'm convinced yet because this approach seems (unless I am misunderstanding) to sort of package up two things: 1) gaining basic sensory information, and 2) knowing what it means, or maybe the ability to know what it means. But maybe in fact I'm not getting your distinction correctly.

Let's take a reasonably common D&D example: for you, is checking a desk for concealed drawers or cubby holes Perception or Investigation?

 

[Coroc]

Substitute

Perception = spot, notice unregular things aka there is something out of place: a trap, a hidden enemy

investigation = analyzing, researching aka the found trap is a mechanic trap, the hidden creature that got away is a probably kobold because the local population says so