Using Heal to find out how someone died.

[Menexenus]

I have a player in my group who likes to use the Heal skill to try to figure out how a corpse died. The cheesiness of how much information he can sometimes get from this tactic has made it an inside joke among our gaming group. Whenever he tries it, we always start humming the theme song to the old TV-series "Quincy" (with Jack Klugman). [Daaa Dadada Da DAAA...]

Now, this use of the Heal skill is not listed under the entry for "Heal" in the PH. However, I have seen this use of Heal referred to in several modules. That is, I've seen situations in modules where a DC for a Heal check is listed as a way for PCs to find out how a corpse died. (One module that I recently read that does this is the "Whispering Cairn," the first module of the Age of Worms adventure path in Dungeon magazine - a magazine that advertises that it contains official D&D content. It gives a Heal DC for players to discover that the skeleton of a long-dead adventurer died from falling damage.)

The problem with this use of the Heal skill is that is that there is usually no reason not to Take 20 on it. In essence, this turns anyone with a beefed up Heal check into a CSI detective. That doesn't seem right. But if you don't let your players use Heal in this way at all, then how will they even know to consider using a Heal check on dead bodies in modules like the "Whispering Cairn" (where a DC for doing this very thing is listed)?

What do the rest of you think about allowing PCs to use the Heal skill to try to determine how someone died? (I'm trying to decide whether to allow it in my game, and if so, how to adjudicate it.)

 

[Jdvn1]

This use of the Heal skill is also in, I think, the Complete Adventurer.

Anyway, is this a gamebreaking issue for you? I haven't had trouble with it.

 

[Jack Simth]

As it's not a Core use of the skill, simply make it a "no retry" use. No Retry - > No take 20.

 

[Li Shenron]

Does it have to be a standard action?

What if you make it default that for example it takes 10 minutes: taking 20 means 3 hours and 20 minutes (otherwise 15mins -> 5 hours). This is usually unfeasible in most adventures.

You can then add the possibility of a "quick check" (1 minute with a -5 penalty) and a "hasted check" (1 full-round action at a -10 penalty).

 

[Menexenus]

Thanks for the suggestion, Li. I agree that performing one of these checks should take longer than 6 seconds, so I will definitely consider how long such a check should take. (15 minutes seems reasonable.) But I have little doubt that the player I have in mind would simply grab the body and spend 5 hours of down time looking at it to allow himself to Take 20.

Jack's solution might work, but I'm not sure I can justify why there are no retries. After all, you would know whether you found the cause of death or not, and you don't "use up" the body when you do the Heal check/investigation. So it seems that retries should be allowed.

Jdvn1: Is what my friend does with the Heal skill "game-breaking"? Well, no, I guess not. It just doesn't seem very "realistic" to me. It seems to me that, by allowing this use of the Heal skill, we are imposing our 20th century scientific worldview on a medieval-based fictional fantasy society. Because of our modern viewpoint, *we* (as players) know that there is evidence there to be found for those who are willing to do a detailed autopsy. I'm not sure that such an idea should/would occur to someone (like our characters) who live before the advent of modern medical science.

I don't know... Maybe I could be making a mountain out of a molehill. (Wouldn't be the first time...) But that's why I started the thread - to find out what others think.

 

[Jdvn1]

Jdvn1: Is what my friend does with the Heal skill "game-breaking"? Well, no, I guess not. It just doesn't seem very "realistic" to me. It seems to me that, by allowing this use of the Heal skill, we are imposing our 20th century scientific worldview on a medieval-based fictional fantasy society. Because of our modern viewpoint, *we* (as players) know that there is evidence there to be found for those who are willing to do a detailed autopsy. I'm not sure that such an idea should/would occur to someone (like our characters) who live before the advent of modern medical science.

I don't know... Maybe I could be making a mountain out of a molehill. (Wouldn't be the first time...) But that's why I started the thread - to find out what others think.

Well, I certainly wouldn't try to put a modern spin on the Heal skill--and an autopsy certainly would take more than a standard action (I thought they took hours).

How I understood the use of the skill, is that you get something like, "He was stabbed with a sword in the front--the other wounds weren't fatal." I don't know about modern medical science, but that seems medieval enough to me. A more modern view could probably tell you exactly how the battle might have went. That's probably too much.

 

[frankthedm]

I LOVE using heal for Churigery and Real life necromany [Forensics].

I'd defintly go the no take 20 since the corpse ain't getting any fresher and a mistake can easily ruin evidence... Only problem is DC is DM fiat since so much is variable.

 

[Li Shenron]

Thanks for the suggestion, Li. I agree that performing one of these checks should take longer than 6 seconds, so I will definitely consider how long such a check should take. (15 minutes seems reasonable.) But I have little doubt that the player I have in mind would simply grab the body and spend 5 hours of down time looking at it to allow himself to Take 20.

I know that D&D is for many groups a game of action. But it all depends on the DC. Some rough examples:

A result of 10 could be enough to know that the victim died of weapon wounds, choke, crushed or drown; it would also tell if it's been dead for weeks, days, hours or minutes.
A result of 15 may tell which weapon type (spear, sword), and may reveal it was poisoned or killed with a spell.
A result of 20 may tell the exact weapon (longspear, short sword), estimate the strength and heights of the killer , and tell which poison (if not rare).

...

A result of 30 (most likely from an autopsy) would reveal a possible race and gender of the killer, the exact time of death, and more details.

It's not that your PC would use the option. But there may just exist the possibility of bringing the body to someone if investigation is really necessary (and probably in a lab, you'll get +4 circumstance).

I like the idea of disallowing retry however (but I'd restrict it to 1 retry per day instead of outright banning), it is much simpler if you don't need the autopsy option.

 

[hong]

I see no problem with allowing Heal for forensic purposes. Remember that taking 20 is just a shortcut for the player rolling again and again. If you can't think of a reason why they shouldn't be able to reroll, then allow take 20, and bump up the DCs by 10.

 

[cmanos]

very simply. we came across the dead body in the alcove with the blue lantern. Three of us huddled around it trying to figure out how it died and the DM said to romm a Heal check.

Unless you want to put a Knowledge (phorensics) into the game, falling back on the next best skill is appropriate. Heal is basically a skill that means you have enough knowledge of someone's anatomy and physiology, as well as techniques to fix it. While it doesn't specifically state it in the Heal skill entry in the PHB.

Realistic? Yes. Knowledge of anatomy and physiology goes back a lot longer than the 20th century. Hell, accupuncture and accupressure, both forms of healing, have been around for several millennia.

I see no problem with taking 20.

It definitely should take longer than 6 seconds, especially for something subtle. (Hmm...blueish colored finger nails, and a slight almond scent around its mouth...)